Bullying, Cancer & Me – the stubbornness behind my success with Nicola Hill, co-CEO of The Garden
We LOVE this episode for its pure candour & important themes! Kimberly deep dives into co-CEO of The Garden Nicola Hill's career which had a hard shunt from Drama to Factual after a bullying incident via unwavering work ethic, the juggle of family life and a cancer diagnosis. We think you will come away from this conversation feeling uplifted and determined to carve out a career and mindset like Nicola's.
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Episode guest info:
Nicola Hill - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicola-hill-0b958454/
The Garden - https://www.thegarden.tv/
The Imposter Club is brought to you by talented people, the specialist executive search and TV production, staffing company run by content makers.
Speaker:For content makers.
Speaker:Welcome to The Imposter Club, a podcast for people working in TV to admit that we are all just winging it.
Speaker:I'm Kimberly Godbolt, director turned Talent Company founder and I glean secrets from influential figures in the creative industries every day.
Speaker:spoiler alert, more successful people than you'd ever realize, still feel like a fraud, but you don't get to hear their stories.
Speaker:That changes right here in this podcast.
Speaker:It's my mission to discover how you can carve out an award-winning career in the company of self-doubt by asking respected senior people to share
Speaker:Come on in to the Imposter club
Speaker:I feel proud to be doing this.
Speaker:Yes, I had lots of sort of imposter thoughts.
Speaker:But actually I think it's really good to try to flip it sometimes and go, no, I deserve to be, I, I've worked bloody hard.
Speaker:Today.
Speaker:I am so excited that Nicola hill is joining me in the imposter club.
Speaker:Nicola has just left her co CEO role at The Garden.
Speaker:One of the UKs most successful production companies.
Speaker:Perhaps you've worked there at some point in your career.
Speaker:They've been making warm-hearted premium returning doc series that employ tons of talented people for more than 10 years now.
Speaker:The kind of shows that you can't imagine a week going by, without seeing them somewhere in the TV chef jewel series, like 24 hours in a and E and police custody.
Speaker:As well as punchy singles with talent, like professor green and travel series with Simon Reeve.
Speaker:Nicola's worked her way up in the company for 10 years from head of production through to MD and then co CEO alongside John hay.
Speaker:So I was excited at the opportunity to let my curiosity loose about the career ingredients that have been chucked in the mixing bowl, during the making
Speaker:Hi Nicola.
Speaker:Welcome to the Imposter Club.
Speaker:hello, Kimberly.
Speaker:Thank you for having me.
Speaker:It's really scary to be here.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Be honest.
Speaker:, how did you feel when I first approached you about being part of something that was all about imposter syndrome?
Speaker:Doing this feels quite exposing in many ways
Speaker:but I can't let those things, those sort of intrusive thoughts, color how I might answer the questions.
Speaker:Cause I do think it's really important to talk to people about, how it's felt, progressing in your career.
Speaker:I thought about me, 10, 15 years ago.
Speaker:And I thought, actually, it's really good.
Speaker:, and I've listened to all your podcasts
Speaker:Honestly, all I want to do with this podcast, I say all is a big thing, is get people talking and drop the guard, drop the bullshit I wanna strip it back to, um, to,
Speaker:to, people being real and, you know, and humble and, , authentic,
Speaker:Authentic, and I think that's, that's the thing.
Speaker:I still find it really interesting how people have kind of navigated their way through, the industry, through problems, through their own insecurities, to reach the top of their game.
Speaker:And I think having a little bit of imposter is not a bad thing because it stops you from tipping into any kind of arrogance and I, you know, which is just the worst.
Speaker:If you kind of tip over into overconfident, then you, I think you stop listening.
Speaker:I think, um, listening, absorbing, understanding people's situations, and really caring about that is really important.
Speaker:You made Me think of something there that,
Speaker:Olly Lambert, the BAFTA awarding filmmaker in our, first episode said, um, where he, he.
Speaker:He constantly battles imposter syndrome.
Speaker:And lots of directors who've been in touch with me and the show have it, has really resonated with them.
Speaker:And he says that actually he's at the point of his career now where, it doesn't break him anymore.
Speaker:He almost welcomes that imposter monster.
Speaker:We were calling it into the room and goes, ah, here you are.
Speaker:Okay, tell me what you've got to say And then, okay, actually I hear you, but I'm gonna disagree this time.
Speaker:But sometimes he does agree and he, like you just said, it kind of keeps him in check and it means that he's always doing his best job and questioning
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's so right, isn't it?
Speaker:But I think, you know, you should welcome those gremlins in, um, and you should, you should definitely talk to them.
Speaker:But I think also one of the things that we're really bad at doing often, and I think it's very female trait as well, not, not exclusively, is, um, recognizing that we
Speaker:And we tend to do that privately.
Speaker:And it's much easier sometimes to say, Ooh, I didn't do that so well.
Speaker:Or, um, you know, I'll, I'll get to the end of this and go, oh, that was really crap, that was rubbish.
Speaker:So we're gonna talk about those pivotal moments during your career where self-doubt or confidence issues have really shaped who you are or the decisions that you've made.
Speaker:But I think just to get to those points Tell me about your, um, sort of early career.,
Speaker:I always wanted to work in Telley.
Speaker:I always knew, I knew that from really young and I, I dunno why.
Speaker:I just loved Telley.
Speaker:I loved watching telly and it was so glamorous and, um, you know, everything from wanting to be a Blue Peter presenter to wanting to
Speaker:My school.
Speaker:Didn't think I'd be able to get in tv.
Speaker:Partly, I think because I was a woman, um, and, you know, it was still, it was a fairly close shop and partly because, I wasn't Oxbridge, um, necessarily.
Speaker:So they sort of said to me, oh, you should do something sensible, like become a teacher.
Speaker:And honestly, and of course there's nothing wrong with becoming a teacher, but it's not what I wanted to do.
Speaker:Isn't that fascinating that you are saying, as a passionate child, I know what I want to do.
Speaker:This is what I'm going to do, help me with some choices.
Speaker:And they were like, no, I don't think that's right.
Speaker:And there was no real kind of career guidance, so I just, um, I worked really hard.
Speaker:Um, they said that I think they downgraded my A levels, um, well, they didn't downgrade them, but they didn't think I would do as well as I did.
Speaker:And I did very well, and I got onto my degree course and oh my God, I had the most amazing four years working
Speaker:before you got there though, did you do a little like *raspberry* to your career person?
Speaker:I've done that since.
Speaker:But there was a bit of a, yeah, there was a moment.
Speaker:Um, and I have gone back to my school to give careers
Speaker:Oh, brilliant.
Speaker:and that's how I
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No one said that I could do it, and I did, and I'm here to tell you anything is possible.
Speaker:Exactly, there was a lot of self-belief there.
Speaker:I thought, no, I'm not having you tell me that I can't do this thing that I really want to do.
Speaker:So I worked really hard and I, I loved my time at the, at Lee University.
Speaker:I loved my course.
Speaker:I spent, some time in industry as well.
Speaker:I worked at the bbc.
Speaker:Can you imagine?
Speaker:I worked in the drama department as well, and I just loved it.
Speaker:And that was really the, the leg up that I needed to get into the industry.
Speaker:So I just wrote to everybody and anybody and kept in touch with people.
Speaker:Um, and then I actually, I started my career in drama,
Speaker:And did you know what you wanted to do?
Speaker:, in terms of role?
Speaker:well, at the time.
Speaker:I thought I wanted to direct drama.
Speaker:in hindsight, that was never really going to be the path, the right path for me.
Speaker:you know, , when you are young, it's great being on location,
Speaker:isn't it?
Speaker:Um, and you don't really have any responsibilities and you can be away from home.
Speaker:And I was given this, I remember just being, they would just throw a set of car keys at you and go, can you go and pick so-and-so up from here?
Speaker:No sat abs of course.
Speaker:Um, and you'd go out to the car park and you'd be looking for, you know, cuz the BBC had pool cars and it was one of those massive great Toyota premier things.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:And I'd never driven anything sort of bigger than like a, you know, a like a little Mazda 3 23, I think we had a, and, and it was automatic and I'd never driven an automatic before.
Speaker:And so I get in this thing and I'm just looking around and I'm going, I've never driven an automatic, how do I start this thing?
Speaker:And this really lovely guy comes over to me, like the security guy in the car park and he said, have you ever driven an automatic before?
Speaker:And I went, no, but don't tell anyone.
Speaker:What do I do?
Speaker:And he said, oh, just stick it in D and put your foot down, you'll
Speaker:Oh my gosh,
Speaker:it.
Speaker:Off,
Speaker:off to collect some, like a-list talent.
Speaker:Pretend you knew how
Speaker:to drove them.
Speaker:but yeah, it was just brilliant and um, and I really loved it.
Speaker:So you, you started off in drama thinking you wanted to direct probably, um, Quite excited at the beginning, kind of finding your way as we, as we all do,
Speaker:were there any moments in your early drama career where, you felt completely out of your depth or uncomfortable that sort of pivoted things?
Speaker:Uh, yes.
Speaker:There was definitely a, , a moment and I, I was, Promoted from, because I'd been running for, you know, you run for a long time, and I was,
Speaker:I was really good.
Speaker:And I was promoted to work on a, um, on a drama as a third assistant director.
Speaker:And this to me was, and it was a big costume drama and it was a really big thing for me.
Speaker:, it was a lot of working from home, away from home as well, so we were just traveling all over the place.
Speaker:And that was quite exciting to me as well.
Speaker:Um, but there was a producer on the production, like a, like a lead sort of senior producer who, Just for no particular reason and honestly, the team, the team around
Speaker:Um, and I didn't understand why, because I was working really hard.
Speaker:I was working my socks off.
Speaker:But it really hit, it sort of triggered an anxiety in me that I hadn't had before.
Speaker:Um, and I found it really hard to na navigate.
Speaker:And I just thought there was, there was this sort of awful kind of power dynamic thing going on as well.
Speaker:I was, you know, I was much more junior and somebody actually said to me, look, I'm really sorry.
Speaker:I found out that this person has a whipping boy on every project and I'm really sorry, but it's you on this one and we don't know why.
Speaker:I just remember hearing that and just going cold and thinking, Christ, I dunno what I can do about this, do I, I'm pretty stubborn.
Speaker:So there was no way I was going to leave.
Speaker:So I just thought, well, I'm just gonna work really, really hard.
Speaker:But what was so wonderful was, the rest of the team protected me.
Speaker:Um, because they said, you're not doing anything wrong.
Speaker:There's nowhere you are going.
Speaker:If you are going, where are going?
Speaker:Okay, so there.
Speaker:was solidarity There
Speaker:There was really massive solidarity, but it was still, you know, every time something went wrong that wasn't, you know, that could have been not related.
Speaker:I was doing, it always came down to something that I had done or not done, you know, which was te, which was really minor.
Speaker:I found it really crushing.
Speaker:How did it make you feel at the time?
Speaker:it made me feel, um, it did trigger an anxiety, um, in me, like proper anxiety and I didn't know what that was at the time.
Speaker:Um, and so there were these sort of physical sort of symptoms of, okay, why am I, you know, why am I feeling like this?
Speaker:Why am I shaking?
Speaker:Um, uh, But it did also make me think, I'm not gonna let this kind of ruin me.
Speaker:I'm not gonna let this get me down.
Speaker:And, um, I now have something else, this sort of anxiety that I need to this little other gremlin that I need to deal with.
Speaker:there was something in the back of my mind going, I know I'm good
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not gonna let this person sort of ruin that for me.
Speaker:But it did take a little time to, I did fall out of love with it for a
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I mean, that's bullying, isn't it?
Speaker:We would class that as bullying Did, did anybody call this person out?
Speaker:I mean, we're going back a very long time ago.
Speaker:As far as I know they did.
Speaker:Or they did try to, but they couldn't even, um, they couldn't even thank me at the end and look me in the eye and say, thank you for doing a good job.
Speaker:Isn't that awful?
Speaker:That is awful.
Speaker:the thing I find most sad about that is why would you not hold up and support people, your colleagues and people who are making their way in the industry?
Speaker:one of the loveliest things for me is seeing people really progress.
Speaker:Who've kind of started off, um, You know, that you've brought into a company, they've started off in a junior position and you see them fly and oh my God, I love it.
Speaker:I really, really love
Speaker:who's the best feeling I have People say to me, you know, oh, Kimberly, I, you know, hope you remember me.
Speaker:You gave me my first job in tv, or, thank you for that support when you gave me, and I made that decision.
Speaker:It is, it's such a rewarding feeling, isn't it?
Speaker:And actually you can give people a, um, a step into the industry, but it's their hard work that that steps them up.
Speaker:, but , I think you also need to be, Generous in your kind of time and your knowledge as well.
Speaker:I think that's really important, So I'm always really open and if people want to know something, I'm, I'll spend half an hour chatting it through with them.
Speaker:Um, because that's the only way I learned.
Speaker:I asked a lot of questions a lot, um, and it's the way I still learn as well.
Speaker:, I think it's important to be able to say, okay, I don't understand this.
Speaker:I don't know this.
Speaker:Can you explain it to me?
Speaker:I think there's a level of self-confidence in that because, I mean, I've always been happy to put my hand up even from school.
Speaker:I was the one who had put my hand up.
Speaker:Uh, when the teacher said to the whole class, everyone following and all the class are going, ah-huh And I'm looking at their faces going, I know
Speaker:And, and they'd all go Thank you afterwards.
Speaker:And I, I've, maybe that's a personality trait, but I've never been fussed about asking a stupid question.
Speaker:And my ch my children ask questions all the time.
Speaker:And, um, and I think that's, that's great.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:Because it's curiosity as
Speaker:Yes, I, and I love that word.
Speaker:I think being curious is, it's exciting in itself.
Speaker:You never know what you might find out.
Speaker:It's why I love talking to people, you know, on this podcast.
Speaker:I'm, I'm excited about what you might say next.
Speaker:I'm, I want to find out what motivated you to do that, or what changed in you to, you know, to make other dominoes fall down.
Speaker:And actually going back to that, that negative period you had then, do you think anything positive came out of that horrible situation on that drama shoot?
Speaker:I think it took a bit of time just to rebuild myself in, in, in all honesty.
Speaker:And then it was something that stuck for a while.
Speaker:we've got a website.
Speaker:Head to the imposter club.com.
Speaker:Where you can contact the show and sign up to receive our emails.
Speaker:As we build a warm community of creative imposters for world domination.
Speaker:Why don't get FOMO and head to the imposter club.com after this app.
Speaker:I, I think it stopped me from allowing myself to progress and be exposed and, I'd look at people and I'd go, my God, you are So, you know, people were sort of flying
Speaker:So I went through a, a kind of a period where things were a bit more static in my career because of that.
Speaker:And then I just thought, what am I doing?
Speaker:I don't feel fulfilled.
Speaker:I need a bloody challenge.
Speaker:I love a challenge.
Speaker:And I want to feel like I'm progressing and I want to feel like I'm learning.
Speaker:That's what really, motivates me.
Speaker:But it took a little while for me to kind of realize that.
Speaker:Now come on.
Speaker:Pick, pick yourself up.
Speaker:Have
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:with yourself.
Speaker:Pick yourself up.
Speaker:Come on.
Speaker:I do find that sad though, that the impact of that one person on that one production, even though you had a really wonderful, supportive, wider team, had a lasting month's,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and you could have flown sooner.
Speaker:yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Which is, which is why I think that it is really important to sort of understand people and even if people aren't doing a good job or they're not having a great
Speaker:they understand that they are still valued and valuable.
Speaker:Um, and sometimes, you know, I I sometimes people are in the wrong, you know, working on a production that doesn't quite suit
Speaker:them.
Speaker:Or in a role that doesn't really, you know, I wanted to be a director.
Speaker:I was never going to, that was never going to suit me.
Speaker:But, you know, helping people sort of understand where their talents really do lie, um, and trying to give them confidence and not
Speaker:break them down.
Speaker:I imagine you've come across bullies since then.
Speaker:I think we've all had experience with that.
Speaker:Do you think being on the other end of that has, um, informed how you handle bullying now or since then?
Speaker:Do you know what?
Speaker:I haven't had too many problems, with bullying.
Speaker:I think it's one of the things that's really important to me now is working with good people and, people who have the same values and who care and, and have the right kind of attitude.
Speaker:And so I, I've come across it, not necessarily myself personally, since then.
Speaker:Cuz I've been quite careful.
Speaker:, but if I see, you know, sort of other people suffering and it that it might feel like bullying to somebody.
Speaker:I try to nip it in the bud.
Speaker:I've got little tolerance for it.
Speaker:Um, And usually there's, I mean, honestly, usually there's something behind it that's really quite simple.
Speaker:and it's just about communication.
Speaker:It's another thing I bang on about all the time.
Speaker:Communication, comms, how are you talking to each other?
Speaker:Crucial though.
Speaker:It is really, really crucial.
Speaker:And if, if your team on that drama had not talked to you and had kind of turned their back on you, I mean, that would've been a whole different kettle of fish, wouldn't it?
Speaker:Oh, it would've been awful.
Speaker:Um, it would've been
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:.
Speaker:, worked on things that you felt were safe, probably really got great at it and felt that you are, you know, you are getting to know your skillset, but then suddenly had
Speaker:I've got to do something about this.
Speaker:I can't let that experience affect my future career.
Speaker:So where did you move on from there and how did you pick yourself up from it?
Speaker:So I think the moment when I, um, when I felt I'd really picked myself up from it was, I went to a, um, a small sort of startup, drama production company with the, , the former head of.
Speaker:BBC films and
Speaker:it was me and, um, another colleague.
Speaker:We were all kind of learning at the same time and it was hilarious and it was fun, but we all had the same attitude and we laughed so much.
Speaker:Um, and we all felt safe not knowing stuff and asking each other questions and asking the right people questions.
Speaker:And gaining our confidence together.
Speaker:And it was just such a lovely time.
Speaker:We, we really did laugh an awful lot.
Speaker:And, it was great.
Speaker:Isn't that wonderful memory, , you're grinning now.
Speaker:Obviously it was a such a safe place that you felt everyone had your back and you could mess up and it didn't matter.
Speaker:And I, I imagine you learned a shed load because of that.
Speaker:, I learnt so much, we all learnt a load and we learnt by trial and error and , you know, they say that sometimes you have to, um, get things wrong to get things right.
Speaker:, yeah, there was a lot of the, the former I think at times but then we always had to find the kind of solutions around it.
Speaker:And it was really, um, I just, I felt I grew there.
Speaker:, It did reignite that spark and my confidence in myself as well.
Speaker:, I can dig deep and I can do this and I don't want to be kind of phased by the things that I don't know because there's l easy ways to find out the things that
Speaker:This industry is so sort of transient in terms of people, in terms of technology, in terms of the kind of the commissioning, , and the actual business around the industry.
Speaker:So, you are always going to be learning.
Speaker:That's what's so great
Speaker:about it as well, isn't it?
Speaker:I am writing down that as a takeaway, it's okay to not know everything.
Speaker:It is okay not to know everything
Speaker:so you were still in drama at this point,
Speaker:I'm still in drama.
Speaker:but
Speaker:we, I suppose I know you from factual and rising through the ranks from head of production to co CEO at the garden.
Speaker:So
Speaker:how did that come about?
Speaker:That's a massive
Speaker:change in
Speaker:it is a massive change.
Speaker:And actually I didn't quite, sort of twig how big a change.
Speaker:It was because, so I went from drama and, , I was headhunted by the then MD Scarlett Ewens.
Speaker:So big shout out to Scarlett, who really had a lot of faith in me.
Speaker:, and she said, oh, come and work with me.
Speaker:I said, oh, but I've never worked in factual before.
Speaker:And she said, that's fine.
Speaker:You know, I, I like all the stuff you don't know, I'll kind of help you with.
Speaker:Oh my God, that was a baptism of fire.
Speaker:I had, um, like a, my son I think was about 18 months.
Speaker:Um, or not even that, actually, I think it was probably just over a year.
Speaker:Having never worked in factual before, there weren't lots of nuances that you don't get in drama, of course.
Speaker:And not least kind of people and consent and, ? So I just, I just dug in.
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:It was really hard and, but I had Scarlet there to go to be really vulnerable with and go, oh my God, I don't understand this at all.
Speaker:Can you just like, like give me the Idiot's Guide to X, Y, and Z.
Speaker:But I think what she knew about me was that I had, like, we had very similar work ethics.
Speaker:We were very similar in that , we are really determined.
Speaker:I definitely had moments early on where I was thinking,
Speaker:I'm being bombarded with information.
Speaker:I'm trying to absorb it all.
Speaker:I'm trying to understand it and I'm also trying to be ahead of production here as well and
Speaker:Oh, don't forget a new mom.
Speaker:and a new mom
Speaker:Sleep deprived.
Speaker:No doubt.
Speaker:and, a wife and yeah.
Speaker:All of that.
Speaker:at times it really, it did feel too much.
Speaker:And I remember going up on the train sometimes and thinking, oh God, oh God, this is, yeah, this is really hard.
Speaker:This is really hard and, can I do it?
Speaker:, and I, and I dunno what it was, but I think, that being allowed to be, , to kind of spill out all my sort of deepest, darkest thoughts to
Speaker:That I really, really wanted to make this work.
Speaker:And I'd always absolutely loved factual telly and, and documentaries as well, as well as drama.
Speaker:And then one day things just clicked and I got it and it was like, it probably took a year, I'd say, of really, drilling into everything.
Speaker:Listening, watching, there was that, that sort of crossover click moment, I went, oh my God, this is amazing.
Speaker:I've got it.
Speaker:No, I can answer all these questions now.
Speaker:I don't feel like an imposter in this world.
Speaker:I know it, you know?
Speaker:Not that I had fallen out of love with telly, but it totally reignited that, that love for it.
Speaker:I think the other thing to say is, yes, it was a different genre, but I think what Scarlett knew, was that there were other skills that I had.
Speaker:I am good at managing teams and good with people and, you know, all of that kind of, those listening skills.
Speaker:I really, I'm kind of quite nerdy around the things like legals.
Speaker:I love the kind of deal making, cut and thrust of the deal making.
Speaker:And she knew that about you and knew that you would bring that to the table.
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:And that I would work hard to, to get there and, honestly she had to talk me down from the edge a couple of times.
Speaker:Um, and I'm so please she did.
Speaker:this is The Imposter Club Coming up,
Speaker:it was, coming up to bedtime and he just walked over and he shut my laptop and he went, no, mummy, no.
Speaker:And I just thought, oh God, you are so right.
Speaker:I've got a favor to ask.
Speaker:Pretty please hit follow or subscribe to the imposter club podcast for two reasons.
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Speaker:The fewer there are outside on their own
Speaker:Welcome back to the imposter club where Nicola hill has told me she's finally got to grips with factual after a tough first year at The Garden.
Speaker:But I want to know at what cost.
Speaker:You said it was really hard.
Speaker:I mean, those are just words that we can all identify with.
Speaker:What did really hard in those lowest points actually look like to you?
Speaker:How is it affecting you?
Speaker:There were definitely moments where I thought, I'm, I'm gonna get found out here.
Speaker:Oh my God, I'm going to so get found out here that I just, you know, dunno what I'm talking about In those, in that sort of first year,
Speaker:And when you went home and talked about this to your partner or family, how did they react?
Speaker:How did you spill out to them?
Speaker:um, my husband has always been unbelievably supportive, in everything that I've done.
Speaker:And he tried to sort of understand it, but I think ultimately he knows that I'm somebody who will get on with it.
Speaker:That I'm, I am stubborn
Speaker:but I mean, there must have been times where he was like, is this worth the stress level?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And also you're trying to look after a one year old, a pick nursery pickup,
Speaker:Definitely that.
Speaker:And I think also , I wasn't present, I think for probably about a year.
Speaker:I definitely wasn't I felt like my brain was at like beyond capacity.
Speaker:just trying to absorb everything and, you know, I wanted to know everything.
Speaker:I wanted to understand it.
Speaker:I really, really wanted to, um, make sure that I could be sort of supportive and helpful and useful.
Speaker:Um, and so I probably, if I'm honest, didn't have as much time for my family as I might have done.
Speaker:And, um, even if I was there, I wasn't necessarily present cuz my brain was somewhere else.
Speaker:And how do you feel about that now?
Speaker:well I'd never really thought about that before actually.
Speaker:Um, I feel, um, feel a bit sad for my son.
Speaker:Um, but I mean, you, you know, can't God see him now?
Speaker:He's 13.
Speaker:He's really robust and, he was always been quite independent.
Speaker:My husband was around as well, a lot more.
Speaker:, I do remember him actually at one point, I think we were, I can't remember what we were doing.
Speaker:And I was at home and I was on my laptop and it was, you know, sort of coming up to bedtime and he just walked over and he shut my laptop and he went, no, mummy, no.
Speaker:And I just thought, oh God, you are so right.
Speaker:And I'm so sorry.
Speaker:This is your time.
Speaker:I can pick up the laptop.
Speaker:It is addictive, isn't it?
Speaker:I, I've been there, like I have done that and I've thought afterwards, why did I not just put my phone down and finish off that story to my child?
Speaker:But what I've learned now is to be able to compartmentalize, which I can do, I can shut off when I need to.
Speaker:And it's not an easy thing to do.
Speaker:And it, I have, I've had to teach myself to do
Speaker:Oh, and how'd you do that then?
Speaker:Spill, spill.
Speaker:I think it's just, you keep having to bring your thoughts back to what you are doing.
Speaker:It's a bit bit like mindfulness, being in the moment and going that can wait for like half an hour.
Speaker:It really can wait for half an hour, doesn't matter.
Speaker:Cut off from it.
Speaker:Now don't think about that, but think about what you are doing, what's right in front of you.
Speaker:Um, but you have to kind of train your brain to just go, stop looking over there.
Speaker:Look,
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That is so interesting.
Speaker:And actually I wanted to go back to Scarlett briefly because from what you've said about the garden, there's two things there to take away from a boss and anybody who's listening, who's an employer
Speaker:one is hire the person for their other skills and for their work attitude because she knew and trusted that you could do it and you could learn the stuff.
Speaker:You didn't have to have the perfect cv.
Speaker:I'm waggling inverted coms in the air because I don't think such a thing exists.
Speaker:And two, she was your.
Speaker:Rock and she was your shoulder to cry on and to be an empathetic, supportive boss and to allow someone who is finding things hard to vent and to ask is beyond valuable and is
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:it's so true.
Speaker:I totally agree.
Speaker:I think it's really rewarding as well when you get out the other, when I had that epiphany moment and I realized that I wasn't feeling, you know, sort of anxious or
Speaker:Where is it?
Speaker:Where's it go?
Speaker:Because it's quite physical, isn't it?
Speaker:Um, anxiety.
Speaker:You feel it really physically.
Speaker:Um, and so I would feel it all the time.
Speaker:It's like, it's, it's just like a little reminder to go, hi, yeah, I'm still here.
Speaker:Um, remember me?
Speaker:Why, why aren't, why aren't you falling apart?
Speaker:But it just sort of suddenly went and I was like, okay, now I can relax into
Speaker:this.
Speaker:Now I
Speaker:can really
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I mean, thanks to your very hard work for that year as well,
Speaker:and you know, brain explosion,
Speaker:Also going back to the thing about having somebody who is really supportive, I think one of the things for me that is like sort of uber important is having my networks
Speaker:the industry but outside of the industry as well, sort of like-minded people who just make you feel grounded and make you realize that um, all the things you're feeling
Speaker:Are universal and , it's just sort of slightly different flavors of them.
Speaker:And just knowing that is really, I think is really grounding and important.
Speaker:And just to have people to, to say, oh God, I've, because also the, the more senior you become, of course the fewer people within your company you can talk to, you can feel vulnerable with.
Speaker:Cuz everybody's looking at you to be steady and stable and, they don't want somebody who's kind of all over the place emotionally or who,
Speaker:So you've got to be kind of quite constant, and that's quite exhausting sometimes.
Speaker:Sometimes.
Speaker:And, and also you don't want to bring that home.
Speaker:So to have somebody outside when I'm at home, I want, I, I want to be going back to this point about, um, you know, being present.
Speaker:I want to be mum or friend or wife or daughter or sister, so actually having people who kind of understand it, who you can meet up with, and, , have a glass
Speaker:Am I normal?
Speaker:You are normal.
Speaker:It's so important.
Speaker:Um, and actually that's such a good point that the more senior you get in a company, the fewer people you have to be vulnerable with.
Speaker:I'd not really ever thought that before.
Speaker:it is really quite lonely.
Speaker:Because everybody is looking to you, for, answers, and I mean, I think I was very lucky at the garden, um, when I stepped into the c I mean, when I was MD and also when I stepped
Speaker:We did have moments where we could be vulnerable with each other and such, and say things that we wouldn't say to anybody else.
Speaker:That was really helpful.
Speaker:But even then, there were things that I didn't want to say to him, and not, not anything necessarily to do with him, but just about, you know, how I might be feeling about a certain thing or if
Speaker:part of my role there was to be, Supportive to him.
Speaker:And also to be positive, like positivity.
Speaker:I mean, that's the other thing you have to do, isn't it?
Speaker:As a leader, stay positive.
Speaker:I mean, I am a slightly annoying, relentless optimist as well.
Speaker:And I think this is where my stubbornness comes in, cuz I will only look at the, the kind of the positives, even when something's really negative.
Speaker:, actually, you know, but what's good about this?
Speaker:What's, what's good that's come out of the bad?
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:It does make it difficult though when you have to make difficult decisions that do affect people.
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I
Speaker:position.
Speaker:I've been in that position.
Speaker:It's not fun.
Speaker:have been in that position and that is really hard.
Speaker:Really, really hard.
Speaker:I think that's, you know, one of the hardest things about, , my job as well is, sometimes having to make those difficult decisions, and you know, that that is going to have an
Speaker:impact on someone.
Speaker:Um, okay, so we've been at the Garden.
Speaker:You are going great Guns.
Speaker:Um, I mean, it, it's just such, so many people want to work at the garden.
Speaker:So many people have worked at the garden.
Speaker:You've got such an incredible back catalog and existing returning series, catalog of documentaries that we all feel like, you know, we, it wouldn't be a nine o'clock slot
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:I mean, how lucky am I to have worked on some of the best, honestly, the best,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and, such brilliant people, really clever, brilliant, funny, fun, supportive people, but also really amazing content mean, it, that's why I stayed so long.
Speaker:I think it is a really difficult place to leave,
Speaker:You've been what I think John described as an architect of so many of these returning series.
Speaker:, I'm so excited to see what, what you go on to do next, but in the thick of all of these big series in 2019, I know that you were diagnosed with cancer
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm very happy to talk about it, and I think it's really important to talk about it for me anyway, not everybody wants to talk about their experience, and that is totally
Speaker:Firstly, people have just, for me, there was no really obvious lump or sign.
Speaker:I just felt like something wasn't right.
Speaker:, I thought it was all hormonal.
Speaker:And so it was quite a shock to get the diagnosis.
Speaker:But also there is life, you know, that treatment is so good.
Speaker:I mean, these days I've been really lucky.
Speaker:I know that's, , not the same experience for everybody, but, You know, breast cancer, particularly the, the survival rate is, is so good.
Speaker:I'm clear.
Speaker:I have been clear for, um, probably, two and a half years now.
Speaker:There's no reason why it should, why it should come back, but, , at the time, I mean, I talk about it as my own personal hell that I had to live through.
Speaker:What Was going on in your life when you got that diagnosis?
Speaker:so I had stepped into the MD role.
Speaker:We, it was still, um, we were still finding our feet I think a bit, um, because the company had changed a lot.
Speaker:Particularly, you know, sort of around, development and, and kind of progressing the company and looking to the future.
Speaker:We were just starting to get traction.
Speaker:And then I got my diagnosis , and I thought being the relentless optimist that um, I'd be able to kind of work my way through that period.
Speaker:Um, but I was so ill, I mean, I was really, I had loads of chemotherapy.
Speaker:, I had loads of surgery.
Speaker:I had radio.
Speaker:I mean, they threw the book at me.
Speaker:Um, and then Covid happened in the middle of it.
Speaker:And honestly, I thought I was going to, I, I re was so worried about it cuz they were talking about, vulnerable individuals.
Speaker:But actually the bits that I found the hardest, through all of that was that, , I had to step back from work.
Speaker:And I think that was because it, it, it allowed me, I talked about being able to com compartmentalize, but I think work was allowing me.
Speaker:To, , not forget about what was going on at all, but just distract me from it for a bit.
Speaker:So , I understood everything that was going on and, all the tests.
Speaker:And I, I was unbelievably lucky that, um, it hadn't spread beyond the lymph nodes.
Speaker:So, um, actually at that point, I knew that the prognosis was much better than they, um, than they thought it might be.
Speaker:So, just having me in my thoughts, 24 hours a day was really hard.
Speaker:I found that really difficult because your brain starts playing tricks on you, and particularly.
Speaker:When, when I was so ill with the chemotherapy, I was feeling things in my body that I just thought I shouldn't be feeling.
Speaker:Um, and then I was going, oh my God, is it, is it something else?
Speaker:And you get this, this sort of anxiety that the whole time.
Speaker:But I, I was quite positive through, through it all.
Speaker:I knew that it was a moment in time and that's what I said to my kids as well.
Speaker:That was, that was quite hard saying, telling my children that I know I seem okay now, but I'm gonna have some medicine that's going to make me really poorly.
Speaker:My hair will fall out.
Speaker:I'll look terrible, but I'm still, your mom and I will get out the other side of it.
Speaker:But they also saw that trajectory as well.
Speaker:So I mean, my big takeaway from that is, you know, God, if you think something is wrong, just go and check yourself out please.
Speaker:But also, all that time that I had to my, to myself, I, I did do a bit of self-examination.
Speaker:I don't think I meant to.
Speaker:Um, but you, I had a lot of time on my hands and I couldn't move anywhere.
Speaker:I mean, I was really ill.
Speaker:I was pretty much sort of in bed most of the time.
Speaker:And when you got that diagnosis though, did you genuinely think you could carry on working?
Speaker:I genuinely thought I could carry on working.
Speaker:I didn't know,
Speaker:um,
Speaker:I just, I'm, I dunno, I haven't been there but I just feel like if, if a doctor sits you down and says, Nicola, I'm really sorry to say you have got cancer.
Speaker:I, I mean, I'm, I can't imagine thinking anything other than, okay, I need drop everything and focus on my health.
Speaker:And you were there sitting thinking, okay, right.
Speaker:I'll just phone John, or, and, and just figure out how to sort of, you know, push some meetings back.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And, and I, you know, it became quite apparent quite quickly that I, I couldn't do that and I was very lucky, um, to have somebody brilliant, um, uh, step in and care take for me while I was off.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But I also do understand it sounds like you're a workaholic and you love your work, and the idea of not doing that, was terrifying.
Speaker:yeah, I actually don't think I'm a workaholic.
Speaker:I think I really like work.
Speaker:I really enjoy it.
Speaker:I find it incredibly, interesting, but if I need to switch off, I can switch off from it.
Speaker:Particularly when you work in factual, you are learning things all the time.
Speaker:So it's, I just, I felt the whole thing is like a learning experience, isn't it?
Speaker:So, it's a sort of lazy way of gaining knowledge.
Speaker:I I love it because, you get really knowledgeable and then you leave it, it's like, Old floppy disks in and outta your head.
Speaker:That's how I used to think about it.
Speaker:But do you feel, how do you feel about that period now in retrospect?
Speaker:Um, it feels like somebody else, it feels like an out body experience, um, going through all of that.
Speaker:It was, um, it, it, I still say it and say, oh yeah, I've had cancer and, and I hope I don't come across as sort of glib and I do sort of joke about it sometimes.
Speaker:. It doesn't feel like me that was going through it.
Speaker:It was me, cuz I can feel it and I'm physically changed by it.
Speaker:I mean, my body is different because of all the surgery that I had to have.
Speaker:I've also got a faulty gene, which means that I had a much, much higher risk of it returning.
Speaker:So I've had a lot of, um, preventative surgery.
Speaker:But I just, , it doesn't sit with me every day anymore.
Speaker:I don't feel like any kind of victim, like I've won a war.
Speaker:Like, you know, I just feel like that was something that I needed to get through, that I need to be vigilant about because I do have a faulty gene.
Speaker:, and I, there are higher risk factors.
Speaker:, but I don't, I don't think about it on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker:It's really, it's really odd.
Speaker:But what it did do, and as I sort of going back to this point about having all this time to myself it did give me a, , sort of clarity I'd say and perspective about things and certainly
Speaker:And just that, , It, it made me think, why do I just not let more things go?
Speaker:Just let it go.
Speaker:Let things wash over you a little bit more.
Speaker:Don't feel so triggered by things.
Speaker:Because at the end of the day, these things don't matter and you get through them.
Speaker:and when, when I say that it's tended to be kind of little things, I might be irritated by something.
Speaker:And I was like, what?
Speaker:Like why are you getting irritated by it?
Speaker:What does it, what does it matter?
Speaker:And I don't think you need to have cancer to have that thought process, but it took, it took that for me, to do that.
Speaker:And so I'm much more relaxed than I was, because you just know that there are some things that are harder to deal with.
Speaker:Faced with serious illness and your own mortality
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:time.
Speaker:I imagine that all went together to give you that, insight.
Speaker:I do think of course that, my time might be more limited.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Might not be.
Speaker:But, that was one of the reasons for deciding to leave the garden because I had a clear scan.
Speaker:I thought it's now or never.
Speaker:for a, a new challenge because actually nothing was wrong and I could have stayed there.
Speaker:It was brilliant, you know?
Speaker:But I'm stubborn.
Speaker:Kimberly, as we've noted, I'm stubborn and I like to be,
Speaker:challenged., and it felt like the right time for the garden as well, if I was going to do it, because they're on a bit of a roll
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is there anything that you wish you could tell the younger Nicola now?
Speaker:Don't take things to heart, don't get frustrated.
Speaker:Um, and don't let things seep into your world outside of work.
Speaker:I mean, they will do a bit of course, but, just relax a bit more.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And do you think, cuz where I'm finding the, the interesting sort of crossover with it, you know, imposter syndrome and all these feelings of self-doubt and, and confidence
Speaker:Actually I think it's less about, you as an individual being happy, if I'm honest.
Speaker:I think it's about creating, a culture and an atmosphere where you've got a happy team and actually that's what makes you happy.
Speaker:I don't think you can just be happy on your, on your own at work.
Speaker:I think we work in a collaborative industry.
Speaker:You have to let that, joy spread out and, um, I think you stop finding the joy in it.
Speaker:You are in trouble.
Speaker:I guess one of the things that I think is, um, I think we're coming round to as an industry more that, is that thing about training as well and the lack of training.
Speaker:And that's harder because people are freelance and I think.
Speaker:There would be less imposter syndrome if people had access to, , more training.
Speaker:It will only benefit you, your company, if people feel that they're kind of properly trained and they know how to, and, and , particularly in those management
Speaker:But I genuinely don't think there's many other industries that gives no training when you step up or even while you are in that job, there just isn't.
Speaker:So we are all learning on the job all the time, by fluke, by osmosis, by asking.
Speaker:Um, and you know, I remember my first.
Speaker:The first time I went into an edit, I had never been in an edit.
Speaker:But I remember having to weigh up whether or not to tell the editor that this was my first edit or
Speaker:mm.
Speaker:bullshit my way through it and hope he didn't sort of find out.
Speaker:But I'm a person of, directness and honesty.
Speaker:And I had that debate for about a split second in my head and went, now I've gotta lay my cards on the table.
Speaker:And it was the best thing I could have done because he went, no worries.
Speaker:I've been working on the series for a while.
Speaker:I'll support you.
Speaker:This is how it works well, but you tell me if it doesn't.
Speaker:So thank God I did that.
Speaker:But that could have been
Speaker:somebody very, with a very different attitude who then would've looked down on me.
Speaker:Um, So that's just an example I think, of something that happens every day with tons of people who are trying to work out whether or not
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:that they need support.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And, creating a safe space where people feel they can have those conversations without feeling like, oh my God, you're an imposter.
Speaker:Because going back to all the things that we were talking about all the kind of the other skills people can, can learn, nobody came into this industry having all the answers and knowing everything.
Speaker:We've all had to kind of learn our way through it.
Speaker:So the more training that we can do to give people confidence, And the, the better the atmosphere and the better the culture in companies where people can be honest.
Speaker:The combination of that is really important.
Speaker:And it's always been very, very important to me.
Speaker:And I'll take that with me wherever I go
Speaker:Wherever you end up next.
Speaker:Well, Nicola, honestly, thank you so much for being so candid.
Speaker:I can't, I can't tell you how much it means to me that people are saying yes to coming to talk to me about this stuff because I just feel so passionately that people need to know the real work, the
Speaker:Pointers that are not formally given in
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:training or, or coaching.
Speaker:Well, Kimberly, I have to say, you are creating a safe space for us to have those conversations because it does, as I said it does feel exposing, doing this.
Speaker:But if people listen to it and take something away from it then it is a good idea.
Speaker:And I've really enjoyed the other podcast
Speaker:as Well, So
Speaker:Well, thank you.
Speaker:And I know, I know people will take things away.
Speaker:And again, thank you for talking about both your professional challenges as well as the personal ones.
Speaker:I, I, I really respect you for that, and I know that it will resonate with people and I can't wait to see you in real life again soon for a cup of coffee and a debrief.
Speaker:or a glass
Speaker:of
Speaker:wine,
Speaker:Or a glass of wine.
Speaker:Let's see what time of the day it is and if
Speaker:it's appropriate.
Speaker:Um, well thank you Nicola so much
Speaker:again, and I will see you really soon.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Come on imposters, let's get everyone talking about this stuff more.
Speaker:Open up your WhatsApp groups and tell your production pals.
Speaker:They need to listen to the imposter club.
Speaker:Everyone loves a podcast recommend, and this is so relevant for them.
Speaker:So that kudos you'll get back is a free gift from me.
Speaker:See you next time.
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