Death by a Thousand Small Cuts: Founder Jason Mitchell on turning outsiderness into opportunity
In this valuable ep, you're going to hear how being an outsider can spur you on to amazing things. How naivety and drive outweighs perfection. How true, fleixible working can transform a business. And what an inspiring human Jason Mitchell is!
Jason was just 29 when he set up the super successful The Connected Set thanks to his outsider-like thinking. And in this conversation with Kimberly he reveals how he has gone from 'wild card' to wildly happy running his production company. Not producing cookie cutter content :-)
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Episode guest info:
Jason Mitchell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchelljason/
The Connected Set: https://theconnectedset.com/
Resources
Film & TV charity - https://filmtvcharity.org.uk/ - 24 hour support line, as well as lots of other useful resources.
Samaritans
- https://www.samaritans.org/
Mind
- https://www.mind.org.uk/
Shout - if you would prefer to text not talk
https://giveusashout.org/
Call It - bullying and harrassment
https://www.callitapp.org/
The Imposter Club is produced by talented people, staffing and headhunting company in TV production with a mission to make the industry a happier, more creatively diverse place.
Speaker:In just a minute,
Speaker:I was still kind of referred to and called the Wild Card because, you know, I was the one of the four that hadn't gone to Oxford or Cambridge.
Speaker:This is The Imposter Club, the podcast uniting all us tv, film, and content folk secretly stressing that everyone else has its sorted.
Speaker:Except us.
Speaker:I'm Kimberly Gobot, TV director, turns staff and company founder.
Speaker:And each episode I want you to hear the real story of a successful industry figure.
Speaker:Not the glossy announcements we usually see, but the truth of their career journey, including the bumpy bits to help you make sense of your own health warning.
Speaker:This podcast may incur whiplash from violent nodding plus an unfamiliar, but hopefully welcome feeling of belonging.
Speaker:Sweet talking.
Speaker:The bouncer on the door of the Imposter Club today is Jason Mitchell, founder and exec, producer slash creative director of the Connected Set.
Speaker:A bit like my guests, I think the Connected Set's output is eclectic, uh, making broadcast tv, short form series and online content, including YouTube channel mashed, which has 4.2 million subscribers when I checked it yesterday.
Speaker:Um, they work at that fascinating intersection of TV and emerging technologies.
Speaker:Uh, but before setting up shop in 2011, Jason developed entertainment formats at places like M T V Princess and Maverick and I note way back on his cv, an experience that we both share, making a wife swap episode or two.
Speaker:Ha ha ha, I know he's pulling a face.
Speaker:Um, I've always been impressed by Jason's transparency on socials and the importance he places on flexible working and workplace culture.
Speaker:So I'm eager to drill down into what's influenced him personally, uh, on all of those things and why it matters.
Speaker:Jason, welcome to the Apol Club.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Yeah, I must say I didn't particularly enjoy my time on Wife Swap.
Speaker:I dunno about you.
Speaker:It was one of those not so good experiences, but, you know, amongst many good experiences in television.
Speaker:Oh man, that was a tough series I have.
Speaker:Um, it was one of those series where, you know, it was short and sweet, but the friendships you make are so intense because of the experiences you have on those sheets that they go on for years and years.
Speaker:So isn't it so Right.
Speaker:Imposter Club.
Speaker:We, the whole point of this podcast is to help that person listening right now feel less alone in their own heads about this challenging creative industry.
Speaker:So tell me first, how would you describe your relationship with imposter syndrome?
Speaker:If you have it at all, where do you sort of sit Yeah.
Speaker:With it?
Speaker:Yeah, it's, it, I think it's so different for everyone, you know, um, and it's been so interesting listening to some of the previous podcasts and, you know, everyone's experience is different.
Speaker:You know, for me it's never been about like not fitting in.
Speaker:'cause actually I have no desire to fit in.
Speaker:I don't want to, I, I, I haven't got a so house membership.
Speaker:I don't want a so house membership.
Speaker:I don't wanna hang out with commissioners at the weekend.
Speaker:You know, I'm quite happy with my life.
Speaker:Um, and I don't wanna be part of those cliques really.
Speaker:I think for me it's always been this questioning of am I good enough?
Speaker:You know, am I good?
Speaker:Am I smart enough?
Speaker:Am I creative enough?
Speaker:Am I charming enough?
Speaker:Uh, you know, it's that kind of, um, self-doubt that, you know, that, that actually it's healthy in small doses, but it, it, it can cross into quite a, you know, a kind of negative thing in your life where, you know, it's, it is kind of undermining you.
Speaker:Um, and, and it becomes a bit destructive.
Speaker:And, and, you know, and, and it varies over time, but when, when I was thinking about it this morning before, you know, doing the podcast, I was thinking it's, it's actually something that I didn't have when I started in the industry.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It's something that has emerged and I think it's maybe some of the things in our industry that has kind of made that happen.
Speaker:'cause you know, I think when I went in, I, I didn't feel outta place.
Speaker:I kind of felt like this starry-eyed, excited person and, um, and, and you know, it's changed over time in the last 20 years.
Speaker:So it's definitely, definitely been a journey in, in some ways, as I've got inadvertent comm more successful, I've kind of felt like more of an imposter <laugh>.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I think that is quite a common thread actually, in these conversations that, you know, depending on your personality, you enter the industry bright eye, bushy tailed, like you say, because you've got no reason not to believe you can't do it.
Speaker:If you've, if you've got yourself in a position where you've found a job or you've got work experience, you're obviously, you know, you've got enough grit to, to get there.
Speaker:I mean, what was your route, what was your route in?
Speaker:Did you, you, you grew up in Portsmouth, didn't you?
Speaker:So I don't suppose there was a thriving TV community down there when you were 17, 18.
Speaker:No, definitely not.
Speaker:I mean, I didn't know anyone in the industry.
Speaker:I didn't have any connections in the industry.
Speaker:Um, so, you know, for me, the route in was through and, and sadly these things don't really exist anymore, but was a graduate scheme.
Speaker:So it was one of these schemes with a big production company, princess Productions, you know, I think a thousand people apply, four get selected every year.
Speaker:Um, and that was my way in because, you know, and I, I did, I did like, I think two weeks unpaid work experience before that, which was all I could afford to do.
Speaker:But, you know, I could, it just wasn't an option for me to go in and do six months of being a runner unpaid, which actually also happened at Princess, which was a wonderful company, you know, but, you know, I, that was not, that was not a route open to me.
Speaker:So, um, I, I was one of the lucky ones, I guess, that I actually got on a formal scheme, um, and got in that way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And actually something I wanna pick up on what you said in the beginning is you never felt the urge to fit in.
Speaker:That's quite, um, that's quite a strong personality trait.
Speaker:I mean, we all, we all at various points sort of find ourselves conforming or feeling the need to conform to something.
Speaker:And like, telly is so subjective, isn't it?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:<affirmative>.
Speaker:So when you were in those sort of early jobs or you sort of mid twenties, you know, finding your way, do you remember points where you were like, I need to change to be the right person for this job?
Speaker:I mean, I think I, I, 'cause I 'cause primarily in my career, a lot of what I've done is have done is development.
Speaker:So in a way, thinking about things as a different way is, is a strength in that role.
Speaker:Um, you know, you're not kind of coming up necessarily with these co cookie cutter kind of ideas that are informed by a life of privilege, um, you know, that are completely unrelatable to the average audience member.
Speaker:So, you know, I, I didn't, I, I don't think I ever tried to like mask myself that said, you know, I am, you know, a white university educated cis man.
Speaker:So I never really, you know, I was never a, I was never a kind of too different from many of the people around me, although everyone around me was posh kind of when I started in the industry, you know, and most of 'em went to Oxford or Cambridge and, but I was not threatening, you know, I was kind of an acceptable level of difference, um, to, you know, what, what was around me, <laugh>.
Speaker:Um, so no, I, I don't think I've had to kind of change things too much.
Speaker:And, and to be honest, like the good thing about being a freelancer back then was that you can just move on if you don't feel you fit the culture or, um, you know, so, which I did, you know, sometimes move on because I thought I've had enough of this now, or I've seen things that have put me off this company.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:What do you think was your acceptable level of difference?
Speaker:Like, what do you bring from to, to the development party or even like your company now that makes you sort of different, think differently?
Speaker:For me, you know, my experiences growing up I think are different to a lot of people working in television.
Speaker:You know, I am a kid or as a kid, I, you know, religiously watched Saturday Night Television, you know, I, so I, I'm, I'm one of the few people in television that actually watch his television well as it
Speaker:Goes out,
Speaker:As it goes out live.
Speaker:Um, and has an encyclopedic kind of knowledge of television from, you know, the eighties onwards, basically.
Speaker:I kind of have seen it all, have watched every episode, um, which I think is quite, you know, helpful and quite different because most, a lot of people, you know, television is a kind of theoretical thing that they don't watch, but they make, um, and I think just, you know, having a quite an ordinary childhood, you know, kind of, you know, growing up, you know, my dad was a double glazing salesman, you know, left school at 14.
Speaker:My mom, you know, was a, she had me, she was a teen mom.
Speaker:You know, my dad's one of 10 kids, you know, we are kind of big family.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What are
Speaker:Your family, your big family of like, I dunno, 10, nine aunts and uncles, et cetera.
Speaker:Think of you in your career in this world?
Speaker:I mean, honestly, like, I'm sure they're very proud, but, um, they all, you know, I mean, they, they're in all kinds of careers.
Speaker:And my dad's, um, well, my dad's side, they're all Roma Gypsy.
Speaker:So, um, you know, they're kind of doing all kinds of interesting jobs from Tarmacking to <laugh>, um, you know, kind of running jewelry boutiques.
Speaker:Um, and you know, honestly, I think like they'd be, they'd be proud of whatever I'm doing.
Speaker:Probably they'd be more proud if I said I was a receptionist at the B B C 'cause they'd be like, oh, B, B, C.
Speaker:But, um, but they always like it when I say I'm making something for the B B C.
Speaker:So, yeah,
Speaker:<laugh>.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And actually that leads me to talking about culture, right?
Speaker:You've got this really interesting, um, idea of culture, um, or, or kind of slight beef with it, haven't you, Jason?
Speaker:So tell me firstly, like when did you start noticing what a culture was in the workplace, and then why did that kind of go on to spur you on to set up the connected set?
Speaker:I have had experiences in my industry as I think a lot of people have, where you've seen really bad examples of culture and actually you just want to do it differently.
Speaker:Um, so, you know, we try and create a really inclusive culture in, in all, you know, kind of in, in all of its forms.
Speaker:And that, and I think that's about more than just saying it, we are inclusive, it's about the policies you have, it's about everything from flexible working, which we are, you know, completely across and, and support.
Speaker:And yeah, I mean, for example, I think 60% of our workforce are outside of London.
Speaker:Um, even though before the pandemic, a hundred percent of us were in London, you know, and, and that's, um, that's quite a big change, but a really positive change.
Speaker:But yeah, I think, you know, experiences like, um, you know, like going back to my time at Princess, I mean, even though it was great that they embrace difference, you know, I was still kind of referred to and called by certain people the wild card because you know, I was what the, one of the four that hadn't gone to Oxford or Cambridge, you know, so it's kind of, um, it's trying to make people not feel like that.
Speaker:Like they're kind of, um, someone's
Speaker:Taking a chance on you, even though, yeah.
Speaker:What does that, does that, what does that even mean?
Speaker:I mean, does that just mean that everyone who's been to Oxford or Cambridge is safe?
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:Boners, thank God those attitudes have changed.
Speaker:Now you can kind of recruit from all sections of society and, um, and that's a really positive thing and it leads to better ideas.
Speaker:And, you know, and as a company, we want our, 'cause we are competing against the big indies.
Speaker:Our ideas have to be different.
Speaker:We can't pitch that generic idea.
Speaker:So you need that difference to generate those different ideas.
Speaker:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker:I really do.
Speaker:It's genuine then as well, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So culture then, can you give me an example?
Speaker:You don't have to name names, obviously, um, but what were the sort of, can you remember any moments that would resonate with the listener here that made you think, I, I don't like this.
Speaker:Or if I ever set up a company that is how I would not do that?
Speaker:I think there's basic things around not screaming your head off at people that are working for you, which I have definitely witnessed.
Speaker:Um, I mean, I remember, uh, an unnamed person of princess productions, but very senior, you know, lambasting the runners loudly about the quality of the coffee they were making, you know, for the co commissioning editors that were coming in, you know, saying that, you know, coffee is what we do best and thinking, you know, that's what I mean.
Speaker:If coffee's what you do best, you've got a problem.
Speaker:But, you know, it's just things like that, that you think is completely unnecessary.
Speaker:Um, or, you know, um, things not being dealt with, you know, issues emerging and everyone being too scared to deal with the problem because, you know, most of us don't have management training and we don't like to confront people and we don't like to be unpopular.
Speaker:Um, you know, or bullying.
Speaker:I mean, I've definitely witnessed and experienced bullying.
Speaker:Um, and, you know, some of those people are now in quite senior positions in the industry, and you kind of know who they are and mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, and you think, well, that's not good karma, is it that they, you know, it did get them where they wanted to be, possibly.
Speaker:But, um, so yeah.
Speaker:But you know, I, I just actively, you know, you just actively avoid those people, don't you?
Speaker:You do, you do.
Speaker:But I mean, at the time, you know, it is easy to sort of downplay it after years have gone past, isn't it?
Speaker:But do you remember how you handled it at the time, and especially if you felt a bit different?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, what did you do?
Speaker:I, I mean, honestly in, in the situation where I was, you know, bullied, I left that company ultimately because, um, what's really frustrating is then that particular bully then moved across to the company I'd moved to as well.
Speaker:So it was one of those, but I actually was working on something completely different, so it wasn't, it wasn't an issue.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But, um, but yeah, I mean, it's sad, isn't it, that I probably didn't feel that I could raise that.
Speaker:Um, and I'm sure a lot of people feel like that.
Speaker:They just think, I don't wanna ruffle feathers, I don't wanna be a troublemaker mm-hmm.
Speaker:<affirmative>, so I'll just move on.
Speaker:And that person kind of continues without, um, you know, so kind of having any consequences to their actions
Speaker:In just a minute.
Speaker:Feeling like an outsider is usually like death by a thousand small cuts generally, like, so it's, it's all these little micro things that in their entirety make you feel like, why am I in this industry?
Speaker:You are listening to the Imposter Club and this is Jason Mitchell.
Speaker:What do you think when people say, and this is something that people still do, say by the way, talking from someone in recruitment effectively, um, that someone know we are gonna let that person down for the job because we didn't see them as a cultural fit.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, I I think you have to really ask yourself as a someone who's recruiting what you mean by that.
Speaker:'cause there are, there are, there are some examples where that might be appropriate.
Speaker:For example, if someone is working for you and they've been working for you for six months, and let's say, you know, we have a no blame culture at the connected set, and this person's always going around blaming colleagues, you might think you're not a cultural fit, you don't fit with our workplace culture.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I get
Speaker:That one.
Speaker:But I, I see it a lot where it's kind of used as code for a characteristic that, you know, a perception that this person isn't intelligent enough because they don't think that they'll, uh, the way they speak, you know, the creative director will kind of get on with them or something, you know, it's, and, and that's essentially, it's, that's classism is sexism, it's all kinds of things, but it's cultural fit is kind of like, almost like a way of saying, we just want this kind of single type of person in this company.
Speaker:And Yes.
Speaker:And, and we don't like this difference.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Weird, very bad.
Speaker:We, we try and decay debt and, and, um, when we are talking to candidates and we've had that as an excuse, we just, we, we either won't use it, we'll go back to the hiring person and say, look, we need something else more specific.
Speaker:'cause that's not okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, can, can you think of any examples of where you felt that your sort of outsiderness or your difference is, albeit not that extreme compared to, you know, how some people feel, as you've said, um, have made you feel really uncomfortable or left out?
Speaker:I mean, I think feeling like an outsider is usually like death by a thousand small cuts, you know, that it's all these little micro things that in their entirety make you feel like, why am I in there?
Speaker:It's industry, you know, it's just, or even, like, I remember going to a screening of, um, A B B C doc called the Mighty Red Car, which was this, oh yeah.
Speaker:Um, you know, doc set in red car and, you know, not to be, don't wanna get in trouble with the commissioners, but just the way they were talking about it, like, it was this incredible anthropological study of like poor people in, you know, the north of England.
Speaker:And I just kind of thought like, what planet are you on?
Speaker:You know, like, so you just, you just witness and experience things like that, that you think, gosh, this really is a kind of small boys club.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So you are doing really great development jobs.
Speaker:There's quite a massive chasm between being a development producer in a company and setting up your own business.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:How and why did that come about?
Speaker:Can you remember a certain point, a thing that made you go, I'm gonna do it?
Speaker:I mean, in some ways it was incredibly naive to set up a company at like, at the age of, I would've been like 29.
Speaker:Um, so Wow.
Speaker:And that's probably why the first few years was slow, but actually, you know, it kind of, uh, did work out in the end.
Speaker:But, um, I think, I think there were a couple of things going on.
Speaker:You know, one was an opportunity that I spotted, you know, this, this kind of intersection of, of television and digital, you know, back in 2011, you know, the, I think 25% of people had a smartphone.
Speaker:You know, internet speeds were really low.
Speaker:Social media had only been around a few years, but clearly it was gonna change television, um, in really interesting ways and change formats.
Speaker:And as a development producer at the time, I thought, you know, there is an opportunity here.
Speaker:But I think the main thing is just all of the indies I was working at just weren't really interested in it, or, or they weren't really investing sufficient resource in it.
Speaker:And I thought there is an opportunity.
Speaker:So again, it's that thing of kind of difference of, you know, kind of being an outsider and not wanting to do the cookie cutter format, you know, the kind of me too copy of Wife Swap or whatever.
Speaker:That made me think the only way I can do this and kind of pursue this opportunity is to kind of do it on my own terms and, and create something myself.
Speaker:Um, so, so that's, you know, and, and that in that way, I think if you look at a lot of entrepreneurs or people running companies, they are often kind of outsiders in many ways because they, they have spotted an opportunity that only an outsider can see.
Speaker:I love that thought that it's the outsiders who can spot the things that make them set up a company and do something different.
Speaker:That's, that's really cool.
Speaker:Well, presumably it's the same for you, Kimberly, you know, I mean, I guess, you know, you must have seen there was a different way of doing things and it compelled you to, to set up
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You bang on.
Speaker:Actually, and I also re hard relate to the naivety comment because I think probably most business owners, when you've ha you've been in business for a few years, and then you look back to the beginning, I know, I, it is not that I wouldn't have done it, I wouldn't have set up talented people, but I definitely, if I knew then what I know now, I wonder whether I would have set it up at all.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you are hope, you are, you are hoping that your kind of prediction is correct, you know, that there is this gap in the market and
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:<affirmative>, but it, it's like your best guess, isn't it?
Speaker:Best guess, it's my
Speaker:Best guess.
Speaker:Bit of luck, uh, yeah, a bit of timing.
Speaker:Um, and it worked out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And well, very much so.
Speaker:Um, I'm keen to talk actually about your, your culture at, at the connected set and how you have built that.
Speaker:So tell me some of the things that you do from a personal point of view for a genuine reason that was not available to you when you were working for other people.
Speaker:Yeah, so I think the big thing is we are, um, we have a work from anywhere policy.
Speaker:So, and by work from anywhere, we don't mean work from home.
Speaker:Um, you can work from home, um, you can come into an office and we have this app that we provide for all of our employees freelancers, which has literally thousands of offices all over the world.
Speaker:So you, it's a bit like an Airbnb.
Speaker:You just book into an office.
Speaker:So if you are, you know, if you're spending the day in Manchester, um, you could go and work from an office in Manchester, um, or if you're in Madrid, and that's all charged to the company.
Speaker:So, and, and it kind of works really well because, you know, some people wanna work in an office five days a week, and they kind of, them and a colleague both feel the same way.
Speaker:And they both go and, you know, there's like a little clique we've got of like four people that are always in an, in an office and Hammersmith and they're kind of happy that like they're, you know, other people, they just want to go in once a week or n you know, not at all.
Speaker:Or get away from like, the builders that are doing something at that house that day.
Speaker:So yeah, I think that's been the single most transformative thing in terms of accessibility to everyone in the industry, because what it means is that, you know, if you're a working mom, if you are a caring for an elderly relative, if you have a disability, if you don't live in the uk, um, if you've got social anxiety, you know, you can, you can work for us.
Speaker:And we are very strict about, you know, no one should be disadvantaged because of their choice of, of where they want to work, which we see as a right.
Speaker:Not a privilege.
Speaker:You know, this is a, this is your right to work wherever you want, as long as you get your work done, we trust you.
Speaker:Um, and that kind of just has fed into everything else in the culture, honestly.
Speaker:Um, you know, we are really good about work-life balance.
Speaker:We tell people not to send emails in evenings and weekends.
Speaker:You know, you are gonna be frowned upon if you do that rather than kind of celebrated there's no presenteeism.
Speaker:So, and, and also it's like creating a company that I want to work at as well, isn't it?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That's gotta be a big thing.
Speaker:But I want my weekends, I want my evenings.
Speaker:Um, I want to be able to take a long break or a holiday or go and work from, you know, I'd worked from the Canary Islands for a month, um, last year.
Speaker:Um, you know, so I, it's not like these policies are for everyone else, they're for me as well.
Speaker:You know, there's a little bit of selfishness there that I would like that flexibility too.
Speaker:And
Speaker:Can you work, can, can that genuinely work where everybody stays within the hours that they have, you know, they don't work weekends, overtime, evenings, and, you know, and have a brilliant work-life balance and flag stuff with you when they need it and deliver in the current economic climate where budgets are super tight and commissioners are really demanding and your output has gotta be way better than everybody else's to survive.
Speaker:I mean, does that really work?
Speaker:It could be a challenge.
Speaker:And there are, you know, obviously there are exceptional cases where you have to, you might be doing a studio shoot and, and those days are not nine till five, but, you know, it's quite often when, I dunno about you, but when I was working at other, for, when I was working on wsop, let's put it this way, I, I'd cast all weekend.
Speaker:I would not get time in lieu.
Speaker:I would not, you know, I, it would almost expect to work in the evenings late.
Speaker:I would not.
Speaker:So, you know, I think, and, and it was every day and you know, what we are trying to create is a, is more of a kind of culture of like, there will be some edge cases where, you know, we do have to do long hours, but that should not be the norm.
Speaker:That should really be the exception.
Speaker:And also you should get some time back.
Speaker:And also you should be told that in advance, so you're kind of able to plan your, you know, life around that.
Speaker:But, um, I think it works well.
Speaker:I think you just have to make sure everyone in the company is kind of doing it because it, it, it, it slips, you know, if, if, if one manager is got a different kind of attitude that will just feed down through the production team.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's probably harder work running a ship like that, being conscious of it all the time.
Speaker:In fact, it, it is probably easier to slip back to the older school TV ways.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:I have to be, I, I personally, you know, have to be disciplined as well.
Speaker:Like not to reply to people's emails after hours.
Speaker:Uh, 'cause you know, you have to, you have to lead by example mm-hmm.
Speaker:<affirmative>, um, and, you know, it's, it, it's hard.
Speaker:I think it's, it's not, it's not actually that difficult internally.
Speaker:I think externally, I am definitely guilty occasionally of replying to a commissioner who emails me at like 8:00 PM asking for something.
Speaker:Um, you sound
Speaker:Just so together though, Jason and Sorted and you know, I know you flagged being, feeling like an outsider at the beginning of your career to an extent, the Wild Card.
Speaker:Hilarious.
Speaker:Um, where do you stand with it now?
Speaker:Do you still feel like that a wild card?
Speaker:I, yeah, I, I mean I do feel, I definitely still feel like a, an outsider in the industry and why
Speaker:I,
Speaker:Um, I think, you know, like there are experiences which I'm sure everyone encounters, which, uh, kind of relating to fairness in the industry and seeing, you know, how you are treated differently as a smaller indie to certain other indies.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that, you know, I know Big Indies are gonna get more commissions and you know, they've got track record, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:But there have been, you know, a number, a number of things that happened over the years that you realize it's not, it is a bit of a rigged system.
Speaker:Um, it's not, it's not this meritocracy.
Speaker:Um, and when commissions say all we want is the best ideas, that's not true.
Speaker:Um, some of them do, but I actually think, like, I've kind of made peace with that in a way.
Speaker:Like rather than rallying against the system, it's just like, find the people that aren't like that.
Speaker:They're the ones that you want to surround yourself with.
Speaker:And that's the nice thing about, I guess running a company or, you know, being a, a steam director or whatever is that you can be a bit more picky and you can just, you know, fire the commissioners that you don't like.
Speaker:<laugh>, um, <laugh>.
Speaker:Well that comes with confidence too, right?
Speaker:I mean, you've been running the company for 12, 13 years now, so there's an element of Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I'm not young and naive anymore.
Speaker:I do know my stuff and I don't need you.
Speaker:I'm gonna go after this, like you say.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Although, you know, you do constantly question yourself, do I know my stuff?
Speaker:Do I not?
Speaker:It is that little gremlin on your shoulder, you know, so you go through moments of feeling like, yes, I know my stuff.
Speaker:And then you go through moments of like, something can happen and you are like, do I know my stuff or am I just winging it?
Speaker:You're not going to want to miss this.
Speaker:A rejection isn't a reflection of my personal worth.
Speaker:A rejection is, you know, 95% of that is nothing to do with me.
Speaker:This is The Imposter Club, the podcast bringing a sense of solidarity to creative types.
Speaker:Now, back to the chat, has there been a really low point in either your career or over the course of the connected set where you've thought, I I wanna go and work in Sainsbury's
Speaker:<laugh>?
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:Um, <laugh>,
Speaker:I, I think like after the pandemic or during the pandemic, actually it's, it's such a weird one.
Speaker:'cause actually we are business really accelerated during the pandemic because of the nature of, 'cause we've got this kind of split model of short form, long form, mid formm, you know, short form.
Speaker:Mid Formm just took off massively because you could make it.
Speaker:We also have an animation arm.
Speaker:So, you know, all of these things, all of these big shows that couldn't be shot.
Speaker:A lot of the money went into shortform, educational content, branded content, et cetera.
Speaker:And we, and we were kind of, so on the one hand that really took off and I was kind of quite burnt out.
Speaker:On the other hand, there were just a series of like, disappointments in the kind of linear side of things where we're doing these really big developments.
Speaker:You know, you spend a year of your life, you get all of the access, you, you know, you make it absolutely bulletproof, and then it's a no.
Speaker:And you're just, it just, it's just devastating, you know?
Speaker:So that's actually, that led to me seeking a business coach.
Speaker:'cause I thought I need someone to talk to and to kind of work through these issues with, which is something I think, you know, I really recommend to people, coaches, mentors.
Speaker:It just gives you perspective.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:'cause that could have gone two ways.
Speaker:You could have gone, so this, I'm out, this is exhausting and I feel dreadful, but you sought a solution.
Speaker:So tell me a bit about how, how did that work and why would you recommend that route?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, I, yeah, so I, um, employed a coach who used to work in the TV industry.
Speaker:And essentially it was a, a kind of six month process, which, you know, was really about identifying what makes me happy in life.
Speaker:Like, kind of moving aside the business.
Speaker:It was like, what, what do I, what's gonna make me happy?
Speaker:And, and frankly, is the business gonna align with that?
Speaker:Can the business feed into my happiness?
Speaker:Can actually running a business make me happy?
Speaker:Is it gonna, can I make that enjoyable?
Speaker:Or is the business the thing that's actually preventing my happiness?
Speaker:And then I need to like, you know, step away.
Speaker:And, you know, we just went through a, a kind of process of thinking about my life goals, of thinking about the things that I'm not confident about, and looking at the evidence that kind of made me think, oh, you know, maybe I'm actually, I am smart enough, articulate enough, whatever, charming enough.
Speaker:And, you know, kind of working on those things.
Speaker:And also like trying to challenge this like master slave relationship we have in TV with commissioners.
Speaker:And what I kind of got out of it was, what you wanna try and do, and I try and do this now, is rather than seeing it as a master slave relationship, see it as like co-parenting, um, you know, that you've kind of got this idea and or this show and you're trying to co-parent it together.
Speaker:And there's always gonna be a bit of a negotiation, but that your kind of interests are aligned.
Speaker:You want the best for the thing, um, rather than, yeah, they've got all the power and you are just this kind of victim that's Yeah,
Speaker:I'm not worthy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I just think a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of the indie commissioner relationships are totally misunderstood anyway.
Speaker:I mean, people, until you're suddenly in those shoes, you don't really know what a commissioner does.
Speaker:And I'm talking again, from personal experience of having directed stuff and you know, potentially putting my out there, putting myself out there, but by saying it.
Speaker:But I didn't know what the commissioner wanted.
Speaker:I didn't know the budget of the program.
Speaker:I was fulfilling a job that a production company was paying me for.
Speaker:And obviously when you're running a production company, your job is to know that.
Speaker:But I think no, 'cause again, no one trains you.
Speaker:You get to those positions and suddenly you are expected to start first naming the person and, um, pretending you know what they want and what this relationship is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I also, I, I, I mean, I feel massively frustrated with most commissions, and yet at the same time I feel hugely sympathetic and I would never, ever want to be a commissioner.
Speaker:And I've been approached about, you know, commissioning jobs and it's like, absolutely not.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think it's such a thankless task.
Speaker:And so I also have a lot of sympathy with them, even though it's a kind of, it's a kind of messed up relationship, you know, <laugh>.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:So let's get back to the Jason who you got a business coach and after six months of sort of working on both yourself and your self-esteem and your goals, you were in a better place.
Speaker:Where did that lead to, from that point?
Speaker:What, what, how did that positively affect things?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it just, um, you know, it, it kind of creatively helped me, you know, it gave me a bit more just passion for, for, you know, kind of almost going back to my roots of like, you know, idea generation, pitching, selling.
Speaker:So it just made me fall in love a bit more with the industry, but by, I suppose by kind of realizing in some ways I was a bit powerless.
Speaker:Uh, and it kind of embracing that and just being like, you know, a rejection isn't a reflection of my personal worth a rejection is, you know, 95% of that is nothing to do with me.
Speaker:It's to do with something in the channel, a budget, uh, a scheduling issue, whatever.
Speaker:So just kind of letting that be water off a duck's back a bit, not, not worrying about that so much.
Speaker:And then also I think by realizing the stuff I didn't, I didn't enjoy and, you know, dare I say, kind of passing that on to other people, but people who might enjoy it a bit more for them, it's all new and exciting.
Speaker:That was also great 'cause it kind of freed me up to, to do stuff I was more passionate about.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:So, you know, promoting people in the company, giving people more responsibility was a kind of big thing that came out of that as well, that I can't do it all.
Speaker:No, and that's, that's a really good point.
Speaker:And to the point where you've just come back from a big break.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Tell me about that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, I'd alway, you know, obviously I'd been running the company for it's 12 years this year, and I decided it'd be a great year to have a sabbatical.
Speaker:So I did three months off, and actually I started planning it at the beginning of the year with no idea that we were gonna go into this unscripted kind of downturn as it happens that, you know, that has unfolded.
Speaker:And in some ways, uh, I don't, not wanting it to sound kind of harsh, but it, the timing couldn't have been better for me because I was, you know, gonna be having this time off.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, and I kind of thought like, well, you know, rather than making people redundant because there's less work, I'll just make myself redundant for three months.
Speaker:Um, but, you know, it, it's, um, it's been really, really great.
Speaker:Again, an opportunity for me to kind of just kind of think more about the future, to generate ideas, to get some rest, but more importantly, an opportunity for other people in the company to kind of step up.
Speaker:And, you know, I, you know, rather micromanaging from abroad, I just promoted a couple of colleagues, one who took on my role, another who stepped up in a production management role and, you know, gave them kind of some training and support and made sure they were ready and then just left them to it checked in once a week, <laugh>.
Speaker:And it was, it went brilliantly to the extent that actually now they're just gonna carry on and I'm gonna be working in on kind of new parts of the business.
Speaker:So, you know, I've kind of made myself redundant.
Speaker:I don't <laugh>.
Speaker:Do you, I mean, it sounds exciting though.
Speaker:Do, is there anything about setting up the company that you regret?
Speaker:Like would you go back and do things differently in 20 10, 20 11?
Speaker:I do think sometimes I wasted a lot of time on things I didn't need to waste time on.
Speaker:And I mean, I'm literally talking about like hoovering the office and stuff like that.
Speaker:Like <laugh>, I probably could have found someone to Hoover the office.
Speaker:You know, like when you are, when you start, you're just so passionate that you're like, oh, I'll change the paper and the printer, I'll do it all.
Speaker:And actually I just think like with that, with those two days a week that I was doing all the admin, I could have actually been selling ideas or so, you know, maybe that was a bit of a waste of time, but then, you know, you, you still learn stuff from doing that.
Speaker:So I, so I don't really have many regrets.
Speaker:Um, no, I don't think so.
Speaker:What, and what would you tell the more junior, Jason, knowing what you know now, you know, the sort of the mid twenties, the chap who was the wild card, what would you say to him now?
Speaker:I almost think like, I, I, yeah, you know, your difference is, your difference is a real superpower.
Speaker:And I think, um, lean into it honestly.
Speaker:Like, I think ult really, you know, that difference.
Speaker:People do want, do want it, it's just finding the right place for it.
Speaker:So it's like find that place that really, really embraces it and then just lean into it, you know?
Speaker:And don't, don't, don't hide yourself.
Speaker:Don't, you know, be your authentic self, um, in the workplace that, you know, I think that's a much happier existence.
Speaker:Yes,
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:And if you find that place that does love it and embrace it, then you can be yourself.
Speaker:Everyone's happy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, your company must be full of people that you support that are different in all kinds of ways.
Speaker:And you know, I know having been in a couple of times, it's a super cool bubbly when you had an office, super cool bubbly place, <laugh>, um, running a, running a truly independent production company that's, you know, pretty small up against the kind of the big bigger established production companies.
Speaker:I mean, in a way that probably feels like slight imposter syndrome anyway, <laugh>.
Speaker:Um, how would you kind of deal with those differences and what, what, you know, is there a benefit to, to people working with the smaller company?
Speaker:I think, you know, I think it's about there are commissioners out there and clients who actually love working with small indies.
Speaker:And it's finding those ones and all, they all talk the talk.
Speaker:They all say they want to talk to small indies, but there's actually probably a small cohort who really mean that.
Speaker:And you know, I think like in some ways I understand why commissioners go to the big indies.
Speaker:Like in some ways it's like, you know, staying at the premier in, you know, you know, you're gonna get your hypnos bed and it's all gonna be very comfortable.
Speaker:And, um, you know, every, every premier in is the same throughout the uk.
Speaker:So, you know, it's that it's that comfort.
Speaker:You might pay a little bit more, but you get that security.
Speaker:But, you know, I I, you know, in a way running a small India is like running an Airbnb, you know, and you, you want those people that like are adventurous.
Speaker:And you know that sometimes when you stay in an Airbnb, you know, it's a brilliant experience with, you know, great value for money that you know, really lovely hosts with beautiful furnishings, you know, and hope all these lovely home touches.
Speaker:But you know, you also accept the risks that sometimes you are, you know, in a basement, the smells of weeded that looking out over a motorway.
Speaker:So, you know, it's finding those commissioners that wanna stay in the Airbnbs and don't wanna stay in the premier in and uh, yeah, <laugh>,
Speaker:I'd go for the quirky smaller ones.
Speaker:Always.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Actually one of my favorite, um, people I worked with on a shoot, um, used to, he was a director, I was his ap.
Speaker:He used to ask the production, the head of production, what the budget was for hotels and then say, I'll look after it and I'll stay within budget, but I wanna book it please.
Speaker:And 'cause he refused to stay in a premier and he found, he, he found the idea of going to shoot in, we were near, um, Loch Mess actually in Scotland.
Speaker:And he's like, I'm not, I'm not commuting to Glasgow and staying in a generic hotel.
Speaker:Let's find a really cool quirky b and b for the same if not less.
Speaker:And we did, we ended up staying in, um, Kevin McDonald's mom's house.
Speaker:Like, wow.
Speaker:It was just absolutely amazing and having these great you go conversations with people, and I thought, that is so cool for a bit of extra work from his point of view.
Speaker:Yeah, we had a better experience on the shoot for the same money,
Speaker:But, you know, no production manager ever got fired for booking people into the premier in, did they?
Speaker:But you know, if they put you in the wrong Airbnb, so I, I, I un I understand, you know, that kind of the risk appetite is low, but you know, honestly, the upside I think of working with a small India is so high if you get it right, yeah.
Speaker:Um, you just get something different, something memorable, something original, um, something that you'll, you know, look back on and think, wow, you know, like, I'm glad I took that risk.
Speaker:Um, and I just dunno if you get that so much, you know, with the, with other, with larger companies.
Speaker:Well, Jason, thank you so much for talking to us about how you do things and why I think I, what I, I love learning people's personal stories into what drives them to actually, you know, making something, building something unique and inclusive, um, takes a lot of hard work because it's so much easier to just do it like everyone else has always done it.
Speaker:So I massively respect that.
Speaker:Um, thank you so much for bearing all your war stories and, um, personal take on the Imposter Club.
Speaker:Hopefully you're feeling less impost in your career than you were, right?
Speaker:It's been great.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And, um, thank you.
Speaker:You've been very kind, interviewer.
Speaker:Oh, thank you.
Speaker:That's it for this episode of The Imposter Club, brought to you by talented people.
Speaker:I'm Kimberly Goldwell and it has been lovely to hang out with you while you commute slash gym slash dog walk or whatever you're doing.
Speaker:If this has struck a chord, please go ahead and share it with your friends in that closed WhatsApp group, I'm not in or on your social networks.
Speaker:Our aim is to reach as many fellow imposters as we can to share love and learnings and create a sense of belonging.
Speaker:And if you haven't already, follow or subscribe to the pod so you don't miss an episode drop.
Speaker:Thank you to talented people, produced and hosted by me, Kimberly Gotwalt, exec producer Rosie Turner, editor Ben Mullins.