A Talented People podcast | www.talentedpeople.tv
May 2, 2023

Helming a Netflix mega doc - Showrunner Kari Lia on career culture clashes and the battle to direct

Helming a Netflix mega doc - Showrunner Kari Lia on career culture clashes and the battle to direct
Season 1

Ever wondered what it's like to be on the creative coalface of a high profile Netflix access documentary series? This episode Kimberly extracts tons of upbeat take-out from experienced Showrunner and Executive Producer Kari Lia, who landed in London from California in her early career and had to learn how to navigate development, directing and Exec-ing as a 'very American, semi-brown' woman.

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Episode guest info:

Transcript
Kimberly:

The Imposter Club is brought to you by talented people, the specialist executive search and

Kimberly:

For content makers.

Kimberly:

Welcome to The Imposter Club, a podcast for people working in TV to admit that we are all just winging it.

Kimberly:

I'm Kimberly Godbold, director Turn Talent Company founder and I glean secrets from influential senior

Kimberly:

spoiler alert, more successful people than you'd ever realize, still feel like a fraud,

Kimberly:

That changes right here in this podcast.

Kimberly:

It's my mission to discover how you can carve out an award-winning career in the company of self-doubt by

Kimberly:

Come on in to the Imposter club

Kimberly:

this is the fun bit

Kari:

you've got my undivided attention.

Kimberly:

In this episode, you get to eavesdrop on my conversation with executive

Kimberly:

His latest project is the high profile behind the scenes tennis doc series on Netflix breakpoints.

Kimberly:

Carrie's got an enviable CV having developed and delivered at top factual companies, including

Kimberly:

So she's a hard lady to book and now I would know.

Kimberly:

We're talking about her unusual break into TV.

Kimberly:

The California versus Cambridge culture clash.

Kimberly:

And how she eventually landed her first directing role.

Kimberly:

Often, always the bridesmaid, never the bride kind of few years as a producer.

Kimberly:

Carrie.

Kimberly:

Welcome to Imposter Club.

Kari:

Thanks for having me.

Kimberly:

Be honest though.

Kimberly:

What did you first think when I approached you about being part of a podcast called The Imposter Club?

Kari:

Well, firstly it was you asking, so it, it's different I think, you know, if

Kari:

I know it's gonna be something worth talking about.

Kari:

So, you know, obviously that, that's great.

Kari:

I, my honest answer when you ask me about, um, feeling like an imposter, and I know it's something

Kari:

, ever since I got into tv there isn't anyone, cuz I've been almost my entire career in London that it like,

Kari:

So I've kind of had to like map out this whole.

Kari:

Idea of what I could do in TV on, on my own, which is fantastic.

Kari:

I am not complaining in the slightest.

Kari:

But, um, there hasn't ever been a kind of idea of what I should be like, or, or some kind of

Kari:

Cuz you know, I'm, I, I don't fit in anywhere.

Kari:

But, um, but then I thought about it and I kind of thought it through and realized, yes, of course, of course.

Kari:

And I think actually anyone that goes makes that transition from kind of being a student or being

Kari:

Of course you feel like an imposter.

Kari:

I mean everyone of course, because you don't know what you're doing.

Kari:

And then it's only when you realize later that actually no one knows what they're doing,

Kimberly:

And then it comes full circle.

Kimberly:

Oh, well, I'm really excited to be talking to you about moments during your career where you have

Kimberly:

Get my head down and do this.

Kimberly:

Because also what I'm learning from my conversations with people is that imposter syndrome manifests

Kimberly:

And like you said, actually, didn't you have a chat with your husband?

Kimberly:

And he was like, Carrie, like, yes, you have like that, that your gut instinct was to feel like

Kari:

Definitely.

Kari:

And I think a lot of times in tv, and I suppose I'm thinking in the last 10 years, you know, but so often what happens

Kari:

You've probably al by the time you get it, you've probably already been doing it for two or three years.

Kari:

You know, you've, and before you actually get that recognition of here you go,

Kimberly:

yeah.

Kimberly:

Actually, the way you got into the industry is fascinating.

Kimberly:

Where, where were you born and how did you end up over in, in

Kimberly:

London?

Kari:

it was a totally bunker.

Kari:

So, I was born in Santa Monica, which is Southern California, and I, I grew up in the middle of nowhere

Kari:

Parents who were incredibly encouraging but had never gone to university or anything like that, them themselves.

Kari:

What had happened when I was growing up in Northern California, there was a lot of drive-by shootings, you

Kari:

And when you watch the news, all you heard was, teenagers are terrible, teenagers are disasters.

Kari:

And so I was about 15 years old and I was like, this is bullshit.

Kari:

Like, this is so not true to any, any of my friends, anyone I know.

Kari:

Like we're just trying to get by.

Kari:

We're trying not to get shot.

Kari:

We're trying, you know, to avoid drug.

Kari:

We're just trying to, you know, do the best we can and get out and, and make something of ourselves.

Kari:

So I wrote a letter to the local TV station in America.

Kari:

You have like TV stations for a whole kind of regions and there was one for Northern California and I

Kari:

And by the way, we're watching and, uh, so I, I dropped this off.

Kari:

I don't know where I got the balls to do this, honestly.

Kari:

I dropped this off at the local TV station and wrote it to the, the guy.

Kari:

Uh,

Kimberly:

this is the time of actual

Kari:

yeah,

Kimberly:

putting it through the door, like giving it to the reception.

Kari:

I'm super old.

Kari:

I know.

Kari:

Yeah, we, I, I actually dropped the physical letter off at this end, um, and an hour later, uh, I got a phone call and

Kari:

And I thought I was gonna be on like the, you know, uh, K F T y naughty step or something, but like,

Kari:

Do you want your own segment on the news?

Kari:

Do you want to present?

Kari:

know.

Kimberly:

So,

Kimberly:

hold on.

Kimberly:

It, it, it kind of went from a viewer complaint to a, do you want your own segment?

Kimberly:

Not even do, can I

Kari:

Yeah, he was like, I'll give you a producer, I'll give you cameraman, the whole thing.

Kari:

And I mean, I had the biggest braces you've ever seen.

Kari:

I, I mean, they were especially large.

Kari:

I had no shame.

Kari:

What's, sorry?

Kari:

I just said, yes, I wanna do it.

Kari:

And not worried about the braces.

Kari:

And I was, I was on TV every week for three years.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

That's an unreal story.

Kimberly:

And had you ever thought B, beyond complaining about the content of that news station, had you wanted to work in

Kari:

No,

Kimberly:

at that point?

Kimberly:

Either on or

Kari:

no.

Kari:

I mean, when you're 15, like you're not thinking about that kind of thing, are you?

Kari:

So, no, definitely not.

Kari:

But I loved

Kimberly:

your segment called?

Kari:

I'm not, I'm not, oh no.

Kari:

It's so embarrassing on,

Kimberly:

I'd

Kari:

I feel

Kimberly:

Say yes.

Kari:

it's called.

Kari:

Okay, I'll, it's called Team Beat.

Kari:

Oh, I can't believe I just told you that.

Kari:

It's like a deep, dark secret.

Kimberly:

What, what, what?

Kimberly:

But why is that so bad?

Kimberly:

Team

Kari:

it made me cringe every week.

Kari:

But the, the segment was cool.

Kari:

Like, you know, no one was really talking about a lot of issues back then and, and, and, and we did.

Kari:

And it was great.

Kari:

And I loved it.

Kimberly:

And you were talking at a level of your peers, right?

Kimberly:

So what kind of thing did you have?

Kimberly:

What kind of thing did you kind of do

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

I mean, we talked about, we talked about abortion, we talked about birth control, we talked about teen moms and

Kari:

There's a lot of almost segregation in the high schools.

Kari:

I, you know, the high school I went to, and, um, yeah, we talked about those things.

. Kimberly:

I mean, I'm already getting a picture of a very plucky, confident 15 year.

Kari:

See, do you know what I find it so interesting because ever since I moved here, and I moved here when I

Kari:

reaching above where you should be as a teenager and is seen as a negative thing, whereas in, in America or back

Kari:

Whereas here, I never told people about it so much because it was always seen as

Kimberly:

That's, that's so interesting.

Kimberly:

And that's an immediate kind of reference to a cultural divide I would think, that you felt

Kimberly:

That's, that's kind of set you up in my mind as someone who was just Yeah.

Kimberly:

A go-getter who's had three years experience by the time they were 18

Kimberly:

working in

Kari:

didn't count for anything, sadly.

Kimberly:

I bet it built something inside you.

Kimberly:

It told you what you wanted to do, maybe, and what you were

Kimberly:

passionate

Kari:

definitely Definit.

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

So when did you come to London and tell us about your first job in the industry.

Kari:

by the time I was 18 and I was about to go to uni, I, I thought I wanted to be

Kari:

But then news was really changing at that time.

Kari:

It was like, um, ambulance chasing, much more sensationalist going, that kind of Fox News wasn't

Kari:

And the writing was on the wall.

Kari:

And I started to become interesting in documentaries.

Kari:

And I could see at the end of documentaries was there was always W G B H, I had no idea what that was, but it

Kari:

So I was like, I have to go to university in Boston.

Kari:

So I went to university in Boston.

Kari:

I ended up getting a work experience job there.

Kari:

And it was very clear from working there that nothing was made in Boston.

Kari:

Everything was made in London at the bbc.

Kari:

So I thought I had a year left and I.

Kari:

I had some English friends and I thought, well, I'll just go to London for six months, get a work experience gig.

Kari:

You know, London's like the Hollywood of documentary making, so I'll go and check it out.

Kimberly:

And what did your parents think about this, Carrie?

Kimberly:

Cause you've already said they didn't go to uni and they didn't work in the media in any way.

Kari:

yeah, uh, my parents are very loving, but, both of them, , suffered from, drug

Kari:

And by that time quite severely in, at least in my mom's case.

Kari:

So, they were like, good luck.

Kari:

You know, , they, they weren't gonna say a whole, a whole lot, but except for, um, except for good luck.

Kari:

And they, they were supportive.

Kari:

They were supportive.

Kimberly:

That sounds like it.

Kimberly:

It sort of made you fairly independent then in your

Kari:

Totally independent.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Okay, so you thought, let's go to London.

Kimberly:

What happened

Kari:

And I was following a boy.

Kari:

I never quite throw that in.

Kimberly:

there you go.

Kimberly:

It wasn't just the career,

Kari:

if I'm being honest, we're, I feel like this is a confessional space here.

Kari:

Uh, yeah, no, of course.

Kari:

I was following a

Kari:

boy

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Cool.

Kimberly:

So kind of, early career, early love that it must have been a big deal then to come to, set foot on

Kimberly:

So how did you walk into a job hill?

Kimberly:

Did you find it tough to find

Kimberly:

one?

Kari:

Again, I wrote letters.

Kari:

And I asked if I could come in and I got a work experience job, which turned into a job at, uh, Brook Lapping.

Kari:

And they were making this fantastic series called Israel in the Arabs.

Kari:

And it was just, It was like all my Christmas that had come at once, the people I was working with and everything.

Kari:

It was, it was great.

Kari:

But I, for me, it was a huge cultural shift because, , I wasn't just American, I was very Californian with a

Kari:

But uh, with London it was very different.

Kari:

And Californians are naturally very optimistic.

Kari:

And someone had told me before I came over, whatever you do, you have to sound cynical and pessimistic.

Kari:

Otherwise, they're just gonna think you're stupid.

Kari:

So if anyone asks you, what'd you think of that TV show?

Kari:

You could never say it was fantastic.

Kari:

You'd have to say, well, you know, and, and scratch your chin.

Kari:

And so

Kari:

I found this difficult, but I, I, uh, I got a lot of things wrong at first, but I was trying, and I think this

Kari:

I tried desperately to sound serious.

Kari:

And cynical for a couple years and I used to call it the Oxbridge Jedi mind trick, but these kind of guys I was

Kari:

make it sound very, very,

Kimberly:

yeah, very

Kimberly:

wise.

Kari:

very wise.

Kari:

I wasn't very good at that, but I

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

But I wanna pick up on something you said there about, um, everything that you said at the beginning was wrong.

Kimberly:

Now with hindsight, do you think what you were saying is wrong or were you just being yourself?

Kari:

I think when you're 21, you are, anyone that's 21 is quite naive.

Kari:

Even though I had had a huge, you know, more life experience than probably a lot of people at that age,

Kari:

Fantastic and hopefully phenomenal on an international scale.

Kari:

I think there's a level of excellence that's demanded of you that you can't possibly imagine.

Kari:

I don't care who you are when you're 21, so I think as an American, you naturally say things

Kari:

Whereas I was working on a totally different level with people whose educations and

Kari:

I loved it, by the way.

Kari:

Absolutely loved it.

Kimberly:

Did you find yourself actively changing your behavior to fit in at a documentary company in

Kimberly:

London?

Kari:

Of course, Yeah.

Kari:

I mean, every time I opened my mouth, people started laughing at my accent, so I had to change my accent.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

I mean, Everyone that I worked with was a guy.

Kari:

I was, I was the only girl, I was the only one that hadn't been to Oxbridge or, or that level of university.

Kari:

Um, and yeah, I was totally different.

Kari:

You know, I was, you know, walking around in my flip flops and I, you know, I had to learn

Kari:

So, of course.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

So there's an element of that isn't there?

Kimberly:

That you could argue was feeling imposter syndrome, therefore you were kind of masking who

Kimberly:

I mean, there are positives and negatives about that, I would say,

Kari:

Yeah, I think, anyone who would come from such a different background and find

Kari:

You know, suddenly they have this American accent and they're super smiley and you're like,

Kari:

Um, so, you know, I think it can go both ways, it was actually meeting my husband, who he actually

Kari:

Like, don't, don't bother.

Kari:

Like there's a loads of people who've got that thing going on, but what you've got is something very different

Kari:

hide it.

Kimberly:

So it took someone else who you were getting close to at that point to actually point out that

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

And I probably would've figured it out eventually,

Kari:

but I think,

Kari:

um,

Kari:

No, no.

Kari:

He'll love that.

Kari:

Oh my God.

Kari:

Are you kidding?

Kimberly:

this is The Imposter Club Coming up,

Kari:

back then, women weren't seen as directors.

Kari:

And also, I didn't wanna make lifestyle or baby shows.

Kimberly:

I've got a favor to ask.

Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

Welcome back to the imposter club.

Kimberly:

Where Netflix show runner, Carrie, Leah and I are discussing whether you should bring your true self to work every day.

Kari:

The fact that, you come from poverty or, areas with mental health problems and, and drug addiction

Kari:

And I would never, ever talk about, whereas now everyone talks about

Kari:

them, you know, it's very

Kari:

open.

Kimberly:

And what do you think about that?

Kimberly:

Is that, is that a good thing?

Kari:

oh, it's funny.

Kari:

That's a good question.

Kimberly:

You must be quite conflicted about it.

Kimberly:

Like you obviously spent, you've just said you spent years trying to kind of cover that up.

Kimberly:

Now people are really open about it.

Kimberly:

You've mentioned it a bit to me, but where do you stand on it now?

Kari:

I think I never talked about it until I was about 40 and I actually started working at Kio Films.

Kari:

Up until then, I'd never talked about it.

Kari:

And um, and I realized it was important for me to talk about it because by that point I was an executive producer

Kari:

people, but other people in the company who might have had my experience and they would not feel comfortable being

Kari:

And so I could kind of lead by example.

Kari:

Now I feel like all of those things helped me and really helped me be empathetic with people, helped

Kari:

I have life experience.

Kari:

I don't see it in any way, shape or form making me a victim.

Kari:

I feel.

Kari:

You know, my, my kids grow up in a very happy, loving household with hopefully none of those things.

Kari:

And I sometimes worry about them, you know, they, they're gonna grow up being quite sheltered and not

Kari:

Of course, I want that, but I, for my, for my life and for my brother and sister as well, I think we

Kimberly:

Where I sit, you know, in my day job, working in talent, I think it is nothing but a, , a benefit

Kimberly:

I can't imagine a development team coming up with ideas for the next series of stuff, more boring than a room

Kimberly:

you know, there's a place for everyone that all those things are so important, but if you can shake it up

Kimberly:

People who can go, I don't see it like that.

Kimberly:

I see it like this, then that can only be a good thing,

Kimberly:

can't it?

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

Do you know what I, I used to call it the um, Christmas holiday test.

Kari:

And the Christmas holiday test is when the development team, cuz I was in development for years and years.

Kari:

You come back after the Christmas holidays and the majority, which will be come from, you know, very nice homes will

Kari:

Right.

Kari:

Everyone asks, and the majority that speak up will go, oh, it was great.

Kari:

My mom cooked for me.

Kari:

She washed my pants.

Kari:

I just sat around and watched TV the whole holiday.

Kari:

And I remember looking around and be like, Well, I put my dad into rehab this holiday, and actually my family

Kari:

lot of, you know, if you don't come from a family of money and, and actually for half of this country and half of

Kari:

They're really stressful.

Kari:

But in the development team, because most people don't come from that, all you get is, oh, it's wonderful.

Kari:

Not realizing that for half the

Kari:

country it's

Kari:

hell

Kimberly:

It's not representative

Kimberly:

then, is it?

Kari:

no, of course it's not.

Kari:

So I felt, you know, uh, little by little, I not to make people feel guilty, you never want people to feel bad.

Kari:

I mean, I, I think it's wonderful that they have a great home, but, but the, it's, that's not the experience

Kari:

for lots of

Kari:

people.

Kimberly:

no.

Kimberly:

no.

Kimberly:

And it's also super personal, isn't it, Carrie?

Kimberly:

Like you've said, you didn't want to talk about that, that was part of your life that felt very

Kimberly:

But not everybody, you know, wants to bring their whole self to work, and that's cool too.

Kimberly:

Um, but I, I just, I hope that the environment that we are in now, you know, provides a, a safer,

Kimberly:

the.

Kari:

yeah.

Kari:

yeah, yeah.

Kimberly:

Would you have any words of advice to anyone in that situation though?

Kimberly:

Cause there are still, you know, lots of teams that are like that and where people might feel very alone in, in that

Kimberly:

situ.

Kari:

I think for 20 years I didn't feel comfortable.

Kari:

You don't have to talk about those things in the workplace.

Kari:

You know?

Kari:

It's actually good to leave yourself at home.

Kari:

My advice would be don't forget what you are bringing to the table and being different is also bringing

Kari:

I suppose it's the victim's thing.

Kari:

I think you always wanna be careful not to go into that victim zone, which

Kari:

is not helpful.

Kimberly:

That's really nice advice okay,

Kimberly:

so you were in development for quite a while, how did , the sort of the mid stage of your

Kimberly:

was that something that came naturally?

Kari:

I wish.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

Uh, no, I really wanted to be a director.

Kari:

I was so determined to be a director, being a director when it's like my kind of end goal of, of wonderfulness

Kari:

As late twenties, you start seeing a lot of guys get plucked, you know, and getting their

Kari:

And, and, and I would get, you know, great AP jobs, fantastic producer jobs,

Kari:

It was, it was great, but, just wasn't getting asked to be a director.

Kari:

And, and I, it is a really difficult step to, to make.

Kari:

And, I finally just said after one particular producing experience, I just said, no more.

Kari:

I am going to try and do it, and I won't take any job unless it's directing

Kimberly:

And that's a tough call to make because we've all gotta eat right.

Kimberly:

And it's a freelance

Kimberly:

industry,

Kimberly:

isn't it?

Kimberly:

Where, you know, you still need to pay your rent.

Kimberly:

Um, you've, you know, you wanna see your friends, you're still in your late twenties.

Kimberly:

But, um, it's so easy to just take the next thing

Kimberly:

that comes along.

Kari:

yeah.

Kari:

And so it didn't actually happen till my early thirties.

Kari:

It was much, you know, later than I probably would've liked.

Kimberly:

And how did it happen?

Kari:

I was doing development at Tiger Aspect and there was a new M T V series that was going, and they

Kari:

It was fantastic.

Kari:

But, it's, it's different.

Kari:

Back then I'm, you know, showing my age, like, uh, I couldn't really self shoot because the, they were

Kari:

Now it'd be fantastic.

Kari:

I, I would love to shoot, but, then it wasn't really, um, possible.

Kari:

, but I don't think that was the only reason why it took so long.

Kari:

But, um,

Kimberly:

Why do you think it took so long?

Kari:

I.

Kari:

It's really hard for people to remember, but back then, women weren't seen as directors.

Kari:

And also, I didn't wanna make lifestyle or baby shows.

Kari:

I was interested in like hard current affairs, you know, or history, you know,

Kari:

They're a bit grittier, and those were male only zones back then.

Kari:

You know, boys were seen as that kind of creative type and the, and the girls were seen as, as

Kari:

And that's just, it was like an unspoken

Kari:

rule.

Kimberly:

Yeah, it's

Kimberly:

not comfortable, is it?

Kimberly:

Thinking about that.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

I mean, it doesn't feel that long ago, unfortunately.

Kari:

. Kimberly: so you had, You got one directing gig

Kari:

the M T V

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

It was good though.

Kari:

I, I loved

Kari:

mtv.

Kimberly:

Do you

Kimberly:

remember it?

Kimberly:

Well, do you remember the first day

Kari:

Oh my god, I loved it.

Kari:

It was an observational series about kids.

Kari:

uh, , he was from a strict, very strict Muslim family was secretly a rapper and a very good one.

Kari:

And he didn't want his parents to find out because they were very religious.

Kimberly:

There's a lot of pressure there on you as a first time director, isn't there?

Kimberly:

Both

Kimberly:

yourself and everyone going, whoa, we've taken a bit of a risk here, you know, giving, giving them this job.

Kimberly:

How did you feel?

Kari:

Terrified.

Kari:

Totally terrified because this is the imposter thing.

Kari:

You don't, you think you can do it, but you don't know if you can do it.

Kari:

And I felt terrified by the time I got my first one under my belt.

Kari:

It was a very different thing because I, I had produced for so long, I had AP for so long that

Kari:

I know what I'm doing.

Kari:

It's okay.

Kari:

But the first one was really scary.

Kari:

First one was really, really scary.

Kari:

By the time I did my second, third one, then it was absolutely fine.

Kari:

And actually I felt really confident because I had had so much more experience producing an aping by the

Kari:

Absolutely fine.

Kimberly:

So that grounding in producing for a long time really stood

Kimberly:

you in good stead.

Kari:

Yeah, fantastic.

Kari:

It was

Kari:

really

Kimberly:

Yeah, it's a really irritating fact about the producer, female director, male

Kimberly:

thing, isn't It

Kimberly:

I mean, I

Kimberly:

It

Kimberly:

still goes

Kimberly:

on.

Kimberly:

I know, I know.

Kimberly:

You just talked about it there like it was in the past and it was, but it is still alive and kicking today.

Kimberly:

But I think that's, that's the hangover.

Kimberly:

Same thing with, you know, people from underrepresented groups in the industry.

Kimberly:

It's the hangover from not doing enough, not not being better at this stuff years.

Kimberly:

And still it's working its way through the pipeline.

Kimberly:

, but I know there are a lot of female producers out there who've been in your shoes and will be

Kimberly:

What would you say to them?

Kari:

Well now.

Kari:

It's fantastic cuz, and I've actually given this advice and, and people have taken it and are directing now,

Kari:

So I will give this advice to you.

Kari:

When I wanted to be a director, you had to have this match of, you know, a hundred pound Digi Vita right now.

Kari:

You can shoot something on your phone, you can shoot anything, you can grab a, a camera from the office if,

Kari:

And so I would say film, film, film.

Kari:

Make a short film.

Kari:

one of the girls, One of my researchers, she made a film about her dad making paper

Kari:

airplanes.

Kari:

I'm

Kari:

not kidding.

Kari:

And, um, it's fantastic little film.

Kari:

And she got, she started directing six months later, make a film about anything.

Kari:

It's a, about making a sandwich, it doesn't matter, but, you know, make lots of

Kari:

One, it gets you really knowing the camera, but it also shows people, hey, I'm not just gonna

Kari:

I am a filmmaker to my core and I'm gonna do it no matter what.

Kari:

You know?

Kari:

And I think there's a confidence in that.

Kari:

And also it shows that you're, you're gonna, you've got that.

Kari:

Get up and go.

Kari:

I think that's what's important cuz it is competitive,

Kimberly:

It really is.

Kimberly:

Yeah, I remember the first time I picked up a camera and thought, oh my God, I didn't realize that you had to think

Kimberly:

I think that's really sound advice.

Kimberly:

Do you think some of the gender divide in producing and directing is to do with women having families?

Kari:

yeah, of course.

Kari:

Because I think.

Kari:

There is a fear if you're directing that, you're gonna have to go away a lot.

Kari:

You know that you're gonna be away on location and, and sometimes you can kind of

Kari:

I think I find, men that are having children now are much more involved with the kids than maybe when

, Kimberly:

so compromises, I mean, we, we've all had to make compromises around life.

, Kimberly:

, and the industry is so all consuming.

, Kimberly:

Something has to give at various points, right?

, Kimberly:

I mean, in motherhood as well.

, Kimberly:

, how did you handle having a baby and then still working in telly

, Kimberly:

anyway?

Kari:

um, , I didn't have a baby.

Kari:

I had babies, I had twins.

Kimberly:

okay.

Kari:

But it was very practical cuz you get it done in one.

Kari:

one.

Kari:

I got an amazing boy and a girl and, uh, yeah, I took a, a year off and then, listen, I love, I love working.

Kari:

I'm totally addicted to, to working.

Kari:

I will admit that.

Kari:

And, , I wanted to get back to it and so I worked, three, four days a week and yeah it was

Kari:

I love

Kari:

it too

Kimberly:

Were you worried though, when you were pregnant and then about to go off and have said babies?

Kimberly:

Were you worried about coming back and how you were gonna

Kimberly:

manage the juggle?

Kari:

I was worried, this is gonna sound terrible, only because I wanted to work so much.

Kari:

I was worried that I would feel that I was neglecting my kids.

Kari:

And then, when I actually had the kids, you know, you are worried that if you're not there with

Kari:

and I just have a rule because my mom works so incredibly hard physically she would come home

Kari:

So my, my rule for me is, you know, I get home and everything is put to the side.

Kari:

I just focus on the kids for an hour or two every evening.

Kari:

No phones, no screens, no nothing.

Kari:

It's just them if I've been working and, and just really give them time and then do the other stuff.

Kari:

So, I don't know, I found a way

Kari:

to

Kari:

make it

Kari:

work.

Kimberly:

I love that.

Kimberly:

That's about prioritizing,

Kimberly:

isn't

Kari:

Hmm.

Kari:

But it means you don't have time for other things.

Kari:

But you know, I

Kari:

always had time

Kari:

for them.

Kimberly:

Yeah, that's really cool.

Kimberly:

How old are

Kimberly:

they now?

Kari:

They're 13,

Kimberly:

Oh, do they think Mummy's got a

Kimberly:

really cool job?

Kari:

but this is what's so cool is I always explained it to them like, you know, I love what I do, and I would

Kari:

Ever since they could understand what was going on, they've been like, we're so proud of you, mommy.

Kari:

And they love watching the shows

Kari:

. So

Kari:

it's fantastic.

Kimberly:

That is really cool.

Kimberly:

I think it's really inspiring to, speak to people who love their job that much, that they wanna impart that

Kimberly:

You know, there's nothing worse than, you know, being stuck at a desk in an office for like, you know, hours and

Kari:

yeah.

Kari:

Although my daughter does say, I'm not sure I wanna work as hard as you do, mommy.

Kari:

I wanna have an easy life.

Kimberly:

Well, good luck with that.

Kimberly:

She better not

Kimberly:

work in TV then,

Kari:

I

Kari:

know.

Kimberly:

We've got a website.

Kimberly:

Head to the imposter club.com.

Kimberly:

Where you can contact the show and sign up to receive our emails.

Kimberly:

As we build a warm community of creative imposters for world domination.

Kimberly:

Why don't get FOMO and head to the imposter club.com after this app.

Kimberly:

, okay,

Kimberly:

So you're directing now.

Kimberly:

Actually, I don't think imposter syndrome is quite the right label for what you're, you are talking about.

Kimberly:

It's almost like , really wanting something to work enough to really fight for it and it not coming naturally

Kimberly:

So that's what you did to get into directing.

Kimberly:

You just worked really hard and

Kimberly:

waited.

Kimberly:

. Kari: Do you know, my husband's a film composer and

Kimberly:

this thing called the fear, and, and I think a lot of young people talk about it, they call it anxiety , and

Kimberly:

A good thing.

Kimberly:

If you can kind of take that feeling of, oh my God, how am I gonna do this?

Kimberly:

. I'm very used to that feeling and that's a thing that gets me outta bed in the morning that makes me, search my brain

Kimberly:

And I just think, that fear is never gonna go away.

Kimberly:

I'll always have that, but you use that feeling and that fear to push you to do more.

Kimberly:

It's a kind of not resting on your laurels, like always wanting to do better.

Kari:

Yeah, well especially cuz TV's changing all the time.

Kari:

You can't, I mean, no one can because you are, you know, you're always being pushed in TV to do something bigger

Kari:

and

Kari:

better, you know?

Kimberly:

Yeah,

Kimberly:

commissioner's never happy.

Kimberly:

It's always gotta be bolder, bigger.

Kimberly:

Where's the hook?

Kimberly:

Where's more jeopardy?

Kari:

Exactly.

Kari:

But I think viewers want that too.

Kari:

Like viewers wanna see something exciting they've

Kari:

seen,

Kari:

you know, the other

Kari:

thing

Kimberly:

All right.

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Expectations of the audience are mega

Kimberly:

high,

Kari:

Yeah, Yeah, And ultimately what, it's all for them, Everything that we're making is for the viewers.

Kari:

It's not for the commissioner, you know, it's always

Kari:

about the

Kari:

viewers.

Kimberly:

yeah.

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Okay.

Kimberly:

That brings us nicely on then actually to break point.

Kimberly:

So you exec for quite a while, and then I remember when we were kind of back in touch, um, you heard

Kimberly:

Show Runner is a really fine nuanced title actually.

Kimberly:

And it means something slightly different depending on the project or the, the, the broadcaster.

Kimberly:

But some people may see it as less senior than an exec because it's a kind of hands-on in the field

Kimberly:

tell me about why you wanted to take

Kimberly:

that.

Kari:

Well I love ex exacting and I still love ex exacting . But I think I really miss being out on

Kari:

Cuz when you're ex exacting you're probably doing, you know, 2, 3, 4 projects at a time.

Kari:

I certainly didn't feel like it was a step down at all.

Kari:

Um, I mean, this was a 10 part series for Netflix and from the very beginning they were

Kari:

Biggest documentary series of the year

Kari:

. are non-scripted.

Kari:

But also, you know, as an American, nothing I was making here, it was very difficult for my

Kari:

So to be able to do something that was gonna be big on Netflix and that everyone at home could see was exciting.

Kari:

And I loved tennis.

Kimberly:

Oh wow.

Kimberly:

So that's actually quite a few boxes ticked of the things that you wanted to do.

Kimberly:

Get back to, um, hands dirty action.

Kimberly:

Have your friends, family at home watch something and a sport that you really enjoyed.

Kimberly:

That's, that's pretty awesome.

Kimberly:

And to make a huge series for Netflix with those, big sports doc reputations.

Kimberly:

How did you feel going into that?

Kimberly:

Were you comfortable enough to think I've got

Kimberly:

this

Kari:

Oh, oh, it was totally terrifying.

Kari:

Of course.

Kari:

I mean, God, talk about the fear.

Kari:

Uh, yeah.

Kari:

I mean, I had four days before I had to get on a plane and go on my first shoot, there was no prep time.

Kari:

I had to hire almost 40 people.

Kari:

, and then also come up with the idea, what are these 10 episodes gonna be about?

Kari:

It can't just be about tennis.

Kari:

It has to be about something much deeper and me meaningful.

Kari:

You know, this took up a huge, 24 7 every single day, every weekend, every evening.

Kari:

For a year of making the series, it was really

Kari:

full on

Kimberly:

That's bonkers.

Kimberly:

Talk about addicted to, to your job.

Kimberly:

How did your family react to

Kimberly:

that?

Kimberly:

Maybe a better question is how do you juggle it as a partnership when you both have incredibly

Kimberly:

full on roles?

Kari:

my husband took on slightly less work , and listen, I have help at home.

Kari:

Like, I'm not gonna lie, A lot of women don't want to admit that, but I, there's no

Kari:

The only free time I have is, like I say, gonna spend talking to my kids and sitting

Kimberly:

Okay.

Kimberly:

. So going back then, you're on the plane.

Kari:

Mm.

Kimberly:

you heading to?

Kari:

La Indian Wells.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

madly reading notes on everyone, like writing scripts.

Kari:

I was actually listening to some audio interviews with them and then just really thinking

Kari:

What are the reoccurring things?

Kari:

And actually what are the things as a viewer that you wanna know, that you can relate to, whether or not you

. Kimberly:

So there's a lot of pressure on a series like that.

. Kimberly:

You've already said you were kind of terrified, which is refreshing to hear and to admit.

. Kimberly:

So there's an element of feeling out of your depth there, I guess.

Kari:

I, I don't think it was out of my depth.

Kari:

I think it was just that it was a lot on, it was just like really, really hard work every single day

Kari:

It was really, it was really tough.

Kari:

And There's no magic secret.

Kari:

I mean, you always wanna know what's the magic secret, to make it easier and less painful next time.

Kari:

But the only secret is just every single day, just little by little, step by step, working

Kari:

hard.

Kimberly:

Oh, I thought you

Kimberly:

were gonna tell us all a

Kimberly:

secret about how to make our lives

Kari:

Well, wouldn't you find that out when one of your guests tell you, which I'm sure they will.

Kari:

You gotta tell me.

Kimberly:

I should get, I should glean all the, all the stuff that everyone says from

Kimberly:

so much easier.

Kimberly:

How about that?

Kimberly:

so how and how do you support your team in a situation that's so full on then for such a long time?

Kari:

Supporting my team was incredibly important to me because I, and this isn't just my belief, like,

Kari:

I think if a team feels safe and protected and listened to and looked after, they will be better at their job.

Kari:

They will be more creative, they will work harder because they feel that they're listened

Kari:

And plus like, listen, the most important, my job, part of my job is what you do is hiring the best people.

Kari:

I mean, if you hire the best people, like half your job is already done.

Kari:

So, you know, I made sure we got in the best people, which we did.

Kari:

Our team was fantastic.

Kari:

And then, um, we were actually asked to deliver.

Kari:

Even earlier than

Kari:

we thought.

Kari:

Yeah.

Kari:

So it was like four,

Kari:

four weeks I think got cut off the schedule and we, we didn't know what if

Kari:

And and in the end we did it and it was very hard.

Kari:

not everyone was supportive

Kari:

. There were people who thought we weren't gonna do it.

Kari:

, I always find it really weird.

Kari:

There is on a first series, there is always this time where it looks like it's not gonna work.

Kari:

Where it's like, um, I always say it looks like a ugly pre-teen, you know?

Kari:

The teeth are too big for its face, it's got spots, , and at that time it's like, who's gonna lose their nerve?

Kari:

And there's a sort of roving kind of finger pointing of who are we gonna blame for

Kari:

working.

Kari:

Which is ridiculous because first series are always go through this ugly preteen stage, right?

Kari:

And my feeling is always, if you're gonna blame anyone, I will take that for the team.

Kari:

You blame me and let the team keep on working.

Kari:

And so I felt very strongly about this and the team knew, I felt very strongly about that.

Kari:

And, um, and because of that, we were able to crack on and, and, and we did

Kari:

it.

Kimberly:

That's a really healthy amateur stance.

Kimberly:

Uh, where did you learn that?

Kari:

From, probably from failing many times.

Kimberly:

Or have you had bosses that?

Kimberly:

did not do

Kari:

Of course, most bosses don't do that.

Kari:

I make a lot of first series.

Kari:

I love making first series.

Kari:

Good in our case is not, is not good enough.

Kari:

You know, they had to be fantastic.

Kari:

Anything less than Fantastic was not good enough, so

Kari:

the bar was very

Kari:

high.

Kimberly:

I love that about your approach though.

Kimberly:

It's so refreshing to hear that because as you say, your team then respect you and wanna work really well for

Kari:

But it goes both ways because I, I wanna work with them, you know, I mean,

. Kimberly:

Were there any moments during the making of that though, where you thought, what am I doing

. Kimberly:

wasn't gonna pan out?

, Kari:

I mean, I should say yes, but I would say no only because actually no one

, Kari:

Like no one's ever done this before.

, Kari:

So if I don't know what I'm doing, that's like completely normal because no one's ever made this series before.

, Kari:

It's not like there's loads of, you know, tennis shows with full behind the scenes access.

, Kari:

With the most famous tennis players in the world, like that just hasn't

, Kari:

happened

, Kari:

before.

Kimberly:

So

Kimberly:

there's kind of a comfort in it being a first series as well, because you've got no precedent and you

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

else knows better than you.

Kari:

Well, I'm sure there's someone that knows

Kari:

better than me.

Kimberly:

But

Kimberly:

you know what I

Kimberly:

mean?

Kari:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

I kind of like that.

Kimberly:

I think that would be reassuring for people to think like that, to not, you know, to not panic,

Kimberly:

far.

Kari:

Yeah, I don't even like to think of them as mistakes because they're just learning.

Kari:

You know, there are ways that you learn and you get better,

Kimberly:

I think what's coming across is your resilience though, Carrie.

Kimberly:

Like there must have been times over your career where people have told you that you can't do that or, um,

Kimberly:

Or do you really think that you can shoot that thing

Kari:

This is why I could never be a commissioning editor.

Kari:

And honestly, I shouldn't say that.

Kari:

Because I work on starting on a no.

Kari:

And I love turning a no into a yes.

Kari:

That's like my best challenge.

Kari:

I love that.

Kari:

Right?

Kari:

Because I'm so used to, everyone says no at the beginning.

Kari:

Right.

Kari:

And I think the, uh, I always, I feel for the commissioners, because if everyone's pitching at

Kari:

That would be a totally switch of the role.

Kimberly:

I love that some everyone should go to Carrie with something that's not possible

Kimberly:

make it work.

Kari:

no.

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Loans, more things like that.

Kari:

joking.

Kimberly:

But you must be so proud of breakpoint and its success.

Kari:

Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's fantastic.

Kari:

And actually the, the best moment of the whole thing was, , on Tottenham Court Road.

Kari:

I don't know if you know it, but they have this huge kind of digital, massive kind of screens everywhere.

Kari:

And, uh, we had heard that the screens were all full of the breakpoint trailer.

Kari:

And so I told my team to, you know, for everyone.

Kari:

I was, I don't know, 15, 20 of us to down tools and we all walked over to see the screen and we were so tired

Kari:

The first time that they saw the screen everyone was smiling and there was this look of like, wow.

Kari:

You know, it was, and, seeing everyone smile like that was the best, you know, all of that

Kari:

It's

Kari:

gonna be

Kari:

worthwhile.

Kimberly:

That's an awesome payoff.

Kimberly:

I mean, not, not many projects.

Kimberly:

Get that real tangible in your face.

Kimberly:

Woohoo.

Kimberly:

You've done at moment.

Kari:

Yeah, Yeah, No,

Kari:

it was, it

Kari:

was amazing.

Kari:

It was

Kari:

great.

Kimberly:

then did your go down the

Kimberly:

pub and have lots of

Kari:

No, then we went back to work.

Kari:

I was gonna say, that moment lasts for about, you know, five,

Kari:

10 minutes.

Kimberly:

Yeah.

Kimberly:

Enjoy it.

Kimberly:

And now back to work.

Kimberly:

We've

Kimberly:

gotta sort that, sort

Kimberly:

that sheet.

Kari:

have deadlines, we have

Kari:

deadlines.

Kimberly:

Is there anything you wish that you could tell the younger carry now with

Kari:

yeah.

Kari:

I think I'd like to tell myself not to worry so much, but then, but then I wonder if the

Kari:

I, I don't know.

Kimberly:

sounds like it was a driver.

Kimberly:

The worry was a, a bit of a driver

Kimberly:

for your, your, ambition.

Kari:

yeah, yeah.

Kari:

Yeah, and I think, there's definitely been times where I've felt like an imposter, but I think also

Kari:

So I, even though I know of course I don't fit in or I don't, look the part, I certainly don't look the part for

Kari:

I suppose I, but that took me a long time to get to that

Kari:

place.

Kimberly:

What do you mean by you don't think you look the part going for most of the jobs you do?

Kimberly:

What, what is, what is

Kimberly:

the part.

Kari:

Well, it's changed now.

Kari:

I mean, the last five years since me too, of course it's changed.

Kari:

But when I first became an exec, a lot of the execs were, they're men, their English, they

Kari:

And I, I suppose if we're talking about being imposter, I had to learn how to think and talk and understand

Kari:

When you're walking into a room, and you're, a kind of five, one Californian semi brown

Kari:

When people think, I want a big showrunner, I want a big executive producer, I'm not, the

Kari:

It's just something you're aware of.

Kimberly:

But you are that person, and so you shouldn't be an imposter club.

Kimberly:

So I should actually kick you out.

Kimberly:

Albert.

Kimberly:

Carrie, thank you so much for sharing so much about your career.

Kimberly:

And those, those moments where you've felt like you needed to fight for it and that you were scared of something.

Kimberly:

And I just think to humanize this mad industry, and to find common ground with people who are, really

Kimberly:

So thank you so much for

Kari:

Aww,

Kimberly:

sharing.

Kari:

thanks.

Kari:

It's

Kari:

been great

Kari:

talking to you.

Kari:

Thank you.

Kimberly:

Right.

Kimberly:

Come on in post is let's get everyone talking about this stuff more.

Kimberly:

Open up your WhatsApp groups and tell your production pals.

Kimberly:

They need to listen to the imposter club.

Kimberly:

Everyone loves the podcast recommend, and this is so relevant for them.

Kimberly:

So that Q dos you'll get back is a free gift from me.

Kimberly:

See you next time.

Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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Kimberly:

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