Sexism, nuns & rocking 'old' - Dorothy Byrne reveals the personal influences on her career in journalism

Transcript

Speaker: 00:00:00

The Imposter Club is produced by talented people, staffing and headhunting company in TV production with a mission to make the industry a happier, more creatively diverse place coming up.

00:00:12,670 --> 00:00:27,930

Always apply for jobs that you want, even if you feel that you don't have the qualifications, because did that hold back Boris Johnson when he applied to be prime Minister of this country?

00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:29,570

Clearly not.

00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:41,690

This is the Imposter Club, the podcast uniting all us tv, film, and content folk secretly stressing that everyone else has it sorted.

00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:42,250

Except us.

00:00:43,070 --> 00:00:46,890

I'm Kimberly Godbolt, TV director turned staff and company founder.

00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:52,410

And each episode I want you to hear the real story of a successful industry figure.

00:00:52,910 --> 00:01:03,010

Not the glossy announcements we usually see, but the truth of their career journey, including the bumpy bits to help you make sense of your own health warning.

00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:10,010

This podcast may incur whiplash from violent nodding plus an unfamiliar, but hopefully welcome feeling of belonging.

00:01:12,150 --> 00:01:12,370

00:01:12,390 --> 00:01:20,010

Is an honor to be introducing you to today's guest on The Imposter Club, someone who has admitted publicly.

00:01:20,430 --> 00:01:23,330

In the course of my work, I've thought I'd die a few times.

00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:35,250

I've been temporarily kidnapped, condemned as a terrorist whore told by my own colleagues I should be imprisoned for several years and hardest of all, been a single parent.

00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:52,730

Dorothy Byrne, the woman, the legend, is now president of Murray Edwards, college for women at Cambridge University, but in TV terms as most recently, editor at large at Channel four, having been the head of news and current affairs, the for many years, an editor of Dispatches.

00:01:52,870 --> 00:02:04,850

Before that, Dorothy worked her way up over decades to become one of the nation's most senior figures in current affairs journalism, often causing headlines with her, no nonsense opinions.

00:02:05,390 --> 00:02:13,170

And actually, I was in the audience of her very much whoop inducing McTaggart lecture at Edinburgh TV festival in 2019.

00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,970

Calling out Boris Johnson as a liar.

00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,250

Doesn't seem like news now, does it.

00:02:18,830 --> 00:02:26,290

And sharing personal experiences of sexual harassment and workplace prejudice with her trademark directness and Witt.

00:02:26,930 --> 00:02:32,050

I remember telling my partner afterwards, she's such a hero for speaking out so fearlessly.

00:02:32,990 --> 00:02:37,130

So Dorothy, huge thanks for joining us at The Imposter Club.

00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:39,930

And firstly talking of fearlessness.

00:02:40,730 --> 00:02:46,090

I can't imagine you have ever felt like an imposter, but is that too presumptuous?

00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:55,780

Well, I think when I was younger, I, um, definitely felt I lacked confidence.

00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:09,000

And when I look back now, men at the same level as me would apply for promotions that I thought I couldn't possibly apply for.

00:03:09,940 --> 00:03:13,880

And I, I'm really horrified to think of that young person.

00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:14,720

Sure.

00:03:15,140 --> 00:03:20,920

But today, I definitely do not suffer from imposter syndrome.

00:03:21,820 --> 00:03:27,560

And no offense meant to the name of your podcast, which I think is a well-meaning name.

00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:42,320

Uh, I think we shouldn't say, or all women suffer from imposter syndrome because there's a risk that that can actually accidentally put women down.

00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,000

I do not feel I'm an imposter.

00:03:45,550 --> 00:03:48,120

I've been a journalist for 47 years.

00:03:48,790 --> 00:03:54,560

I've been a television journalist for 41 years, and I am the real deal.

00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,240

I know what I'm doing.

00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:57,920

I'm not an imposter.

00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:08,720

However, I know a lot of men who are imposters and they should feel that they have imposter syndrome because they are imposters.

00:04:09,270 --> 00:04:12,680

They make out that they can do things they can't.

00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:18,529

And in that category, I would put nearly all the men running the country <laugh>.

00:04:21,149 --> 00:04:28,590

So I think there are a lot of people who would kill to have your confidence right now in their career.

00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:34,070

How did you get to the boldness and the fearlessness that you have today?

00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,510

Where did you start out?

00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:37,230

Where's that story begin for you?

00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:48,270

Well, uh, strangely enough, I would say that the nuns at my school had an effect on me.

00:04:48,740 --> 00:04:51,990

They decided that I should be a labor mp.

00:04:52,430 --> 00:04:56,830

I, I didn't have any desire to be a labor MP at all.

00:04:57,410 --> 00:05:13,390

But they said, um, that in order to do that I needed to win the National Schools Debating Competition, which was then and still is nearly always won by leading private schools.

00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:14,430

Right?

00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:28,430

So they brought in a man from a nearby school because they thought they couldn't do it to teach me how to be self-confident when battling with other men.

00:05:29,610 --> 00:05:37,210

And he made me stand on a big Victorian table and alone in a room.

00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,130

This would never happen now.

00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:44,130

And he threw a subject at me and I just had to speak about it.

00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:52,040

And as I started to speak, he started yelling at me from below.

00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:57,650

And because I was standing on a table that makes you feel lacking in confidence mm-hmm.

00:05:57,650 --> 00:06:01,320

<affirmative> F off your stupid little bitch just F off, F off.

00:06:01,460 --> 00:06:03,480

And I went, oh, oh, oh.

00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:06,760

And he said, don't stop, don't stop.

00:06:07,380 --> 00:06:08,520

You have to keep going.

00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:11,880

It doesn't matter what anybody says or does.

00:06:12,380 --> 00:06:13,440

You keep going.

00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:18,920

And, and I did win the National School's Debating Competition.

00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:29,440

And many years after that, when I first became the editor of a program, a man said to me, who worked for me?

00:06:29,820 --> 00:06:33,360

Why don't you f off you stupid little bitch f off?

00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:39,390

And I said to him, I was trained by nuns to deal with men like you.

00:06:40,860 --> 00:06:48,720

So what I do is I just, it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what you do, I just carry on.

00:06:49,470 --> 00:06:57,960

Um, so I I I think people believing in you when you're young is very important.

00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:02,360

But I should say that my father really believed in me.

00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:07,840

So I think it's, I'm not talking about just women believing in you.

00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:08,320

Mm-hmm.

00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,000

<affirmative>, it, it's important to have people who believe in you.

00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:30,320

And I believe that early on in their career, what's a very good thing for young women to do is I urge my students, um, always ask for a pay rise.

00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:34,420

'cause that makes people think well of you.

00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:47,190

Um, also always apply for jobs that you want, even if you feel that you don't have the qualifications.

00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:54,950

Because did that hold back or Horis Johnson when he applied to be prime minister of this country, clearly not.

00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:55,430

Nope.

00:07:55,570 --> 00:07:57,270

Ticket a tip from Mayers book.

00:07:57,890 --> 00:08:10,870

And then the f final thing I think for young people is that it's a very good idea to go to somebody and say, I really admire you.

00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,630

Maybe somebody a bit more senior in the company.

00:08:14,550 --> 00:08:37,230

I wonder if you might be interested in just giving me a little bit of informal mentoring and my experiences that when you ask people that they almost always say yes because they're flattered and they think, oh, I can do something useful here.

00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:43,530

And then they will inevitably become your champion.

00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:52,380

And often people think that they should be writing to the chief executive of the company.

00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,200

But I think it's somebody who's just a bit further up.

00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:57,160

I agree.

00:08:57,220 --> 00:09:08,200

And someone who's got, um, more of a hunger to do that and probably a little bit more time in their diary than a C E O who is also slightly more removed from the coalface.

00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:10,040

I think that's, that's a really good idea.

00:09:10,220 --> 00:09:12,160

And that they really get something out of it as well.

00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:13,200

Yes.

00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:20,720

I I think when I've mentored people, I've got as much out of it as they have.

00:09:21,580 --> 00:09:27,000

And it also enables you to think a bit about, oh, how did I achieve that?

00:09:27,460 --> 00:09:27,680

00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:31,440

You were, what, mid twenties when you got your first job in tv?

00:09:31,780 --> 00:09:32,960

How did that come about?

00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:42,680

Well, I actually worked in local papers and I didn't apply to work in TV till I was 30.

00:09:43,380 --> 00:09:45,800

No, that's interesting, isn't it?

00:09:46,270 --> 00:09:46,560

Yeah.

00:09:46,940 --> 00:09:51,240

Why didn't I, I I had a very good degree.

00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,960

I had done lots of interesting things.

00:09:55,220 --> 00:10:04,760

I'd won the National Debating Competition and yet, um, I didn't start applying to my late, very late twenties.

00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:23,280

And the difference then was I answered an advert in The Guardian and now there aren't adverts in The Guardian for full-time staff jobs in television at the time.

00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:29,120

At the time I took the job at Granada TV on their, starting on their local news.

100

00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:31,160

And then I went on to World In Action.

101

00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:36,630

Um, I was offered a job as an onscreen reporter

102

00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:38,110

103

00:10:38,110 --> 00:10:38,270

Right.

104

00:10:38,370 --> 00:10:40,950

For an L w T program in London.

105

00:10:42,210 --> 00:10:52,230

But I took the Granada job partly 'cause I really liked Granada and World in Action, but also because it was a staff job.

106

00:10:53,530 --> 00:11:02,950

So I don't think I made the wrong decision, but it was partly based on the fact that I wasn't rich enough.

107

00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:11,820

I felt to be able to risk doing a six month contract and then not having a job at the end of it.

108

00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,940

And now I think that that is a real problem in television.

109

00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:30,480

If you are not well off with parents living in London and you get offered a contract to do three months in tv, that's a great opportunity.

110

00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:40,300

But if you are not well off and you come from Lancashire as, which is where I was living, you might feel, oh, I can't take that top

111

00:11:41,690 --> 00:11:42,360

Completely.

112

00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:45,720

It's a, almost a totally freelance industry now.

113

00:11:45,900 --> 00:12:08,040

And it is, it has a huge impact on the people who are just simply able to consider a career in tv because how are you gonna afford a, you know, a flat, uh, a bed anywhere in London if you bumping from a one week job to a one month job with a three week gap in the middle, like you just aren't going to be able to pay your rent.

114

00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:14,190

Do you remember, um, the first place that you lived in London when you were trying to get into print journalism?

115

00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:15,400

Yes.

116

00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:16,440

It was terrible.

117

00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:24,490

I lived in, uh, one room in a family's house.

118

00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:26,210

That's all I could afford.

119

00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:33,450

And every night I washed my nylons, which is what we wore then.

120

00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:45,790

And I dried them by squeezing them in a towel and put them on the next day, which did have the unfortunate effect that they got longer and longer, um, <laugh>.

121

00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:50,150

Yeah, it was, it was very hard.

122

00:12:50,610 --> 00:13:01,740

And in my first job on a paper on the Walham Forest guardian, I also lived at first in one room in a family house.

123

00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,460

And that wasn't very nice.

124

00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:12,600

And I would have these moments of thinking, gosh, is this how I'll ever live?

125

00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:24,120

I mean, it's, it's very hard for anyone in their twenties, even if, you know, they have some level of support in London around, or Manchester, whatever city you are in, trying to find work, but especially hard for those who don't have links.

126

00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:30,280

Do you remember what your parents thought of you wanting to come to London and carve out a career in the media?

127

00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,460

Oh, my mother was absolutely appalled that I should go and work on a local paper.

128

00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:42,500

Because bear in mind, you can go and work on a local paper if you've left school at 16.

129

00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:50,070

And I can remember, I have three sisters being with her when she met a friend.

130

00:13:50,490 --> 00:13:55,990

And she said to the friend that one of her daughters was now a doctor.

131

00:13:57,070 --> 00:14:09,270

Uh, one was married to a university lecturer and one was married to the deputy head of the Foreign Service in Australia.

132

00:14:11,180 --> 00:14:14,810

And then that was it, it, it, it stopped.

133

00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:23,880

So it was like she only had three children and it's because she couldn't bear to say to this woman.

134

00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:29,000

And Dorothy works on the Walham stow, guardian <laugh>.

135

00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:35,520

My father got it better because he said, oh, this is really interesting.

136

00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:43,600

And you learn court reporting and you're covering crimes and, and this is you forging your career.

137

00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:50,600

So when I became head of news and current affairs and my mother was very excited because mm-hmm.

138

00:14:50,640 --> 00:15:06,000

<affirmative>, now she could tell everybody I, in my head, I refused to take her compliments because I thought you didn't compliment me when I was finding my way in life.

139

00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:08,920

So you have no right to compliment me now.

140

00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:14,640

But my father, I said, thank you very much to him for his compliments.

141

00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:16,800

Don't go anywhere.

142

00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,880

I really suffrage in the menopause.

143

00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:22,200

It was awful.

144

00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:27,240

I woke up every hour or two, I mean I was constantly exhausted.

145

00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:36,280

And as a result of that, I commissioned a film about the menopause and I would never have done that.

146

00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:44,240

And actually the program rated so well that they almost immediately commissioned a second one.

147

00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:54,390

This is the Imposter Club and I'm talking to Dorothy Byrne.

148

00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:57,430

That is really interesting actually.

149

00:15:58,010 --> 00:16:11,470

And a question that we get a lot at my company, um, you know, we we're trying to help people into the right jobs for them is, you know, but if I have that on my cv, is that gonna undo the good stuff?

150

00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:14,190

You know, oh, but I need to pay the mortgage or I need to pay the rent.

151

00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:16,550

What if I take this rubbish job?

152

00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:18,510

It's only freelance, it's only for three months.

153

00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:19,350

What shall I do?

154

00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:26,270

And you've kind of answered it there in that everything is a stepping stone to something else.

155

00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:33,310

And of course we all have the long-term strategy that we'd, I ideally like, and we would like that job there probably in five years time.

156

00:16:33,810 --> 00:16:48,270

But those increments of how you get there, I mean, personally, I, I think that you learn so much from doing the stuff that you are, I dunno not, not as keen on as you do the ones that you throw your heart and soul in 'cause you love it.

157

00:16:48,270 --> 00:16:50,510

Because actually you have to find your way, don't you?

158

00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:51,310

You still have to deliver.

159

00:16:51,310 --> 00:16:54,830

If you're a proud person, you wanna deliver, you're going to make it work.

160

00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:58,470

So I mean, from what you've said, you know, you would probably advocate that.

161

00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:17,079

Well, I look at people's cvs and I admire them if I see that they say work their way through university and maybe worked in a shop every weekend.

162

00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:25,118

I, I like to see on CVS for journalists also that they've lived in the real world.

163

00:17:26,358 --> 00:17:30,880

I mean, I'll tell you a woman I admire massively mm-hmm.

164

00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,480

<affirmative> is the new professor of astrophysics at Cambridge University.

165

00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:48,640

Her Rania Perez, who doesn't come from a well off family, when she was young, she won a place at Cambridge University, actually at Murray Edwards College.

166

00:17:49,580 --> 00:18:01,850

But she couldn't afford to take it for two years because she had to go and work for two years to earn money in order to be able to do her degree.

167

00:18:02,350 --> 00:18:05,130

So I, you know, I admire her because she's a brilliant yes.

168

00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:09,970

Astrophysicist, but I admire her for that.

169

00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:23,570

And again and again, if you look in the story of people you admire, you, you'll see some suffering and struggle that they have to overcome that.

170

00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:39,770

One thing that I would say to people who are giving advice to young people on talking about their careers, and I I think many people know this anyway, is don't just tell them about, I was brilliant at school then.

171

00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:43,410

I was brilliant at university then I was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

172

00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:48,690

Um, talk about things that went wrong in your life.

173

00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:49,740

Mm-hmm.

174

00:18:49,780 --> 00:19:02,470

<affirmative>, because for many people it's what they learn from what went wrong in their lives that helped to make them the people that they are.

175

00:19:04,090 --> 00:19:13,440

I had a terrible accident and couldn't walk for a year and was told I might never walk again.

176

00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:23,720

And that has really informed my journalism throughout my life.

177

00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:35,600

It has given me an understanding of what it's like to be a helpless patient in a not very good hospital that isn't treating you well.

178

00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:48,000

So I have made a lot of films about the N H Ss, it's taught me about the effect that disability has on people.

179

00:19:48,780 --> 00:20:00,480

How disability, even if it's an invisible disability, can destroy self-confidence and throw people's lives sideways.

180

00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:08,960

At what point in your career did you have that accident and how, how did it impact, um, your, your, your mental health?

181

00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:28,530

Well, I, I was a volunteer teacher in Nigeria and we, after university and we were all encouraged to buy small motorbikes so that we could get to shops in nearby town.

182

00:20:29,290 --> 00:20:42,450

W nobody would do that Now, it was mad and I fell off my motorbike and broke my knee very badly and was flown home and was operated on in full length plaster for a year.

183

00:20:43,670 --> 00:20:52,740

So one of the effects of that was that all my friends by the age of 24 were starting out in their careers.

184

00:20:53,400 --> 00:21:00,900

And I was sitting there in full length plaster thinking, will I ever start my career?

185

00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:12,300

And by the time I did start applying to journalism schemes, I discovered they nearly all closed by the age of 23.

186

00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:18,620

Because at 24 you were called an adult entrant and you had to be paid more.

187

00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,580

So nobody wants to employ you 'cause two older 24.

188

00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:25,420

Wow.

189

00:21:25,460 --> 00:21:26,020

That's shocking.

190

00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,420

And I had great difficulty getting a job.

191

00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:38,090

And then when I did get the job, I, I told them I could now walk properly.

192

00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:39,410

But actually I couldn't.

193

00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:47,650

Luckily the newsroom was on the ground floor and I, my leg didn't bend enough to walk up and down stairs properly.

194

00:21:48,150 --> 00:21:49,290

And you didn't tell them this?

195

00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:58,770

No, because I why not knew, I, I, I knew if I said I had some form of disability, I wouldn't get the job.

196

00:21:59,970 --> 00:22:12,510

And I think of that now and I still know quite a few people who hide their disabilities or their past illnesses.

197

00:22:13,710 --> 00:22:23,070

I know women who say, you must never tell anybody that I've had breast cancer because if you do, I won't get anywhere I've gone.

198

00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:24,270

That can't be true.

199

00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:30,390

But they say, because as you've just said, the work is freelance.

200

00:22:31,210 --> 00:22:38,420

If people know that I've had breast cancer, they might think, oh, she might not be able to cope.

201

00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:51,200

I have two debilitating, um, illnesses that fortunately you get temporarily, uh, polymyalgia rheumatica and giant cell arteritis.

202

00:22:52,690 --> 00:23:05,140

And I know leading people who never tell anybody they have these diseases because they are worried they won't get work.

203

00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:14,980

I know an actor who has it and he doesn't tell anybody because he's worried he won't get theatrical work.

204

00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:23,810

'cause people think, oh, he's got these two horrible autoimmune diseases, let's just employ somebody else.

205

00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:24,970

Yeah.

206

00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:38,210

I mean, I, I would like to think and, and being on the coal face of things and hopefully very much positively influencing the way companies and people are hiring now that we have certainly seen the, seen the tide turn on that.

207

00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:47,230

And obviously we can't get inside people's heads and unconscious biases or even deliberate biases and go, you have to, you know, choose that person over that person.

208

00:23:48,470 --> 00:24:07,800

But we absolutely see difference disability background, as you have quite rightly said, lived experience that can only enrich a team's creativity that can only bring certain viewpoints and should never be seen as a negative.

209

00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:11,480

Only a how can we help you be your best at work.

210

00:24:11,630 --> 00:24:13,560

Well, and we are seeing that more and more.

211

00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:24,160

And look at how I've just said to you that my experiences then have influenced the programs that I've made.

212

00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:24,400

Yeah.

213

00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:26,680

And I can think of a very good example.

214

00:24:28,110 --> 00:24:30,230

I really suff in the menopause.

215

00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:32,510

It was awful.

216

00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:37,550

I woke up every hour or two, I mean I was constantly exhausted.

217

00:24:38,410 --> 00:24:47,830

And as a result of that, I commissioned a film about the menopause, which was, um, Dina McCall went on to present.

218

00:24:48,970 --> 00:24:56,950

And I would never have done that if I myself had not suffered from the menopause.

219

00:24:57,570 --> 00:25:07,190

So if the only people you have working in TV are people who don't have anything wrong with them, will lucky them.

220

00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:08,030

Yeah.

221

00:25:08,130 --> 00:25:14,790

But I would say it will limit their ideas for TV programs.

222

00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:22,630

And when, um, I commissioned that, a lovely young man that I worked with said, oh, nobody will watch it.

223

00:25:23,770 --> 00:25:25,230

And uh, I said, really?

224

00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:26,920

I think they will.

225

00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,280

And he said, well, only old women will watch it.

226

00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:46,640

And I said, well luckily there are lots of old women, but I don't think you're right because actually the menopause can come on in your early forties and all women are going to have the menopause one day probably, or nearly all.

227

00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:54,920

And they are, they have employers, they have sons, they have male partners, they have male friends.

228

00:25:55,580 --> 00:26:03,240

And actually the program rated so well that they almost immediately commissioned a second one.

229

00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:12,250

You have done such a great thing with your menopause campaigning and like, like you say, it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't gone through it yourself.

230

00:26:12,650 --> 00:26:17,250

I mean, I know loads of people are much more open about talking about what is their policy at work.

231

00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:18,930

It's not so ick anymore.

232

00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:21,410

Um, I just think it is vital.

233

00:26:21,470 --> 00:26:22,890

You know, me and my friends talk about it.

234

00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:25,170

Davina McCall was so fantastic on it.

235

00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:30,690

And you know, internal policies at channel four now are just excellent for people going through the menopause.

236

00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:34,410

So all of that massively backs up what you're saying.

237

00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:42,670

And, and actually one of my favorite things that you said in your McTaggart was when you change who is making tv, you change tv.

238

00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:44,440

And that's what we are saying.

239

00:26:44,830 --> 00:26:48,400

Yeah, I am, I'm a hundred percent sure that that's true.

240

00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:52,040

And it's not just true in television.

241

00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:59,370

You, you take into each new workplace your knowledge and experience.

242

00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:15,910

But you made a very good point at the beginning actually of our chat that we think about younger women, but we don't think enough in this country about women in the middle of their careers.

243

00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:16,590

Yeah.

244

00:27:17,290 --> 00:27:30,470

And we have maternity policies, but it's only very recently, partly as a result of that Dina McCall program that companies have a menopause policy.

245

00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:40,550

And we don't think enough about why women's careers get stuck in the middle.

246

00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:51,270

And I think women in the middle of their careers who could rise to the very top are the group that we should look at.

247

00:27:52,670 --> 00:27:58,690

For example, people say, isn't it marvelous there are far more women on boards?

248

00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:07,050

But if you look at that, actually they're the non-executive directors in the s e 100.

249

00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:12,410

There are only three companies that have women CEOs.

250

00:28:13,090 --> 00:28:16,070

I mean, that, that is incredible.

251

00:28:16,610 --> 00:28:17,790

Is mind blowing.

252

00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:22,390

So how do we get women to the very top?

253

00:28:23,650 --> 00:28:28,990

And I think some of that is about helping with the menopause.

254

00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:49,540

Some of it is about helping them through some critical years, which is when you have maybe got the menopause, you've got teenage children going through the ludicrous and horrific exam system.

255

00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:50,460

Yes.

256

00:28:50,840 --> 00:29:01,860

And your parents are getting older and might need constant visiting and they might be in a home and you have to visit them.

257

00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,500

And those three things happened to me all at once.

258

00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:20,620

And if I probably, if I hadn't been a single parent and if I hadn't loved my job so much as well, I might well have given up.

259

00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:38,830

And I know a lot of women who gave up and of the women I started out with by the age of say 65, I was the only one still working in a substantive job.

260

00:29:39,650 --> 00:29:39,870

Wow.

261

00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:54,880

It's such a good point, Dorothy, because quite, I think quite a lot of people, and maybe this is sort of because it was my peer group more recently, but, but worry about the women who are giving up, um, work or finding it difficult to come back from maternity leave, for example.

262

00:29:55,220 --> 00:30:08,880

Not all women have kids, um, of course, but there is a significant chunk of, of women who in their thirties, late thirties have kids and then struggle to get back in because it's freelance, because childcare is expensive.

263

00:30:09,020 --> 00:30:11,000

All of it, losing confidence, all of those things.

264

00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:30,240

But actually thinking ahead to those women once they have found their way in, whether, you know, there, there is support and usually, hopefully most of the time we get them back somehow that section of your career when you don't want to be giving up because are you ever gonna come back from it when you are, you know, late fifties, early sixties, as you say.

265

00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,920

That is, that is a big deal.

266

00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:38,400

And, and, and a whole new load of stresses involving family that you, that nobody talks about.

267

00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:53,680

And I think for men too, we need to devise much cleverer ideas about having flexible working at various points in your career.

268

00:30:54,740 --> 00:31:02,800

And we need to stop this idea that if you work, if you stop work for a bit, you are hopeless.

269

00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,760

Or if you work part-time, you have to go down.

270

00:31:08,590 --> 00:31:08,880

Yeah.

271

00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:09,240

That is

272

00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:13,400

So you have a really good job and now you have a less good job.

273

00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:13,720

Yeah.

274

00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:29,530

But there's some very interesting research that somebody has just told me about among American hospital doctors, women, even if they don't have children, their careers get stuck.

275

00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:38,410

So I think we need to do more research about this group.

276

00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:43,810

Women who didn't have children whose careers get stuck.

277

00:31:43,810 --> 00:31:44,090

Yeah.

278

00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:55,610

I mean, Athene Donald Dean, Athene Donald, who's just written a fantastic book, um, not just for boys, why we need more women scientists mm-hmm.

279

00:31:55,650 --> 00:32:07,810

<affirmative>, she says the key to her being stupendously successful is that her husband, a mathematician took on the role of looking after the children.

280

00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:15,300

But I don't think we should be saying one person that had to be done

281

00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:16,780

Then needs to take over that job.

282

00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:17,140

Yeah.

283

00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:17,460

And

284

00:32:17,460 --> 00:32:19,380

It, and it, it was wonderful.

285

00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,860

He saw she was brilliant and felt that was the right thing to do, but we shouldn't have to choose.

286

00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,700

Um, no, I don't believe in the notion of having it all.

287

00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:41,480

I believe in the notion of having what we have the talents to achieve and deserve without killing ourselves.

288

00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:44,040

Just round the corner,

289

00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:58,400

The standard said I could appear on their list of the hundred mo or 200 most influential people in London if I said how old I was.

290

00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:02,480

But I couldn't be in the list if I didn't say how old I was.

291

00:33:08,060 --> 00:33:14,550

This is the Imposter Club, the podcast bringing a sense of solidarity to creative types now on with the good stuff.

292

00:33:16,670 --> 00:33:17,310

I love that.

293

00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:21,670

I'm gonna just can what you just said and repeat it over and over you'll Yeah.

294

00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:22,270

You're bang on.

295

00:33:22,350 --> 00:33:31,270

I mean, I always used to talk to my, um, peers and friends going through similar early thirties working in tv, having kids ha how do we make this all work?

296

00:33:31,650 --> 00:33:43,590

And I remember us all saying, it's almost like someone, if you are in a, a relationship with someone and you both have careers, there has to kind of be an, a career and a b career if you're going to have a family and make it work.

297

00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:43,990

Yeah.

298

00:33:44,290 --> 00:33:45,270

How did you manage it?

299

00:33:45,270 --> 00:33:50,230

Because when you became a parent, you were, were you already head of news and current affairs at Channel four?

300

00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:50,510

Yeah,

301

00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:57,630

So I was, no, I was the editor of a program on I T V at that point.

302

00:33:57,630 --> 00:33:57,990

Mm-hmm.

303

00:33:58,030 --> 00:34:03,030

<affirmative>.

304

00:33:58,620 --> 00:33:58,910

Okay.

305

00:33:59,130 --> 00:34:07,750

And I was 45, so I had earned enough money to be able to have a live-in nanny.

306

00:34:09,150 --> 00:34:16,989

So I had my baby at the, you know, and I say to people, do not assume you can do what I did.

307

00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:21,469

I managed to have a baby when I was nearly 45 with my own egg.

308

00:34:21,860 --> 00:34:23,870

That will not happen to most people

309

00:34:24,570 --> 00:34:25,429

As a single parent.

310

00:34:25,449 --> 00:34:25,870

We should say.

311

00:34:25,870 --> 00:34:26,710

You weren't in relationship.

312

00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:48,420

Yeah, I went, yeah, I went, I, it was, I had a donor child and um, yeah, I could afford to have a live-in nanny, but I, and I did that because otherwise there's, the stress would've broken me.

313

00:34:49,770 --> 00:35:07,510

And at that point, because she's 26 now, I never felt that I could say, I'm afraid I can't do that meeting because of childcare problems or I'm afraid my daughter's ill and I can't come in today.

314

00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:17,870

I mean, obviously sometimes I did have to say that, but I was really frightened of the effect on my career.

315

00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,920

I was freelance, I was the editor of a program.

316

00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:36,200

So if I had taken a year off, number one, I didn't have maternity ca pay, but number two, I would not have been the editor of a program by the time I came back.

317

00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:42,150

So I took five and a half weeks off and that was horrific.

318

00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:51,750

And maybe if I'd known how horrific it was going to be, I would never have done it because you've still got all those hormones in your body as well.

319

00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:59,900

And my longing from my baby would become absolutely physically overwhelming.

320

00:36:01,060 --> 00:36:09,180

I tried expressing milk in the toilets and after about two and a half weeks I just gave up.

321

00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,300

It was so depressing and disgusting.

322

00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,400

Um, yeah, it was really, really hard.

323

00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:38,960

And one thing I feel, again, the government says it's concerned about people, about the birth rate falling is we should not have a system where maternity pay is so totally allied to the fact that you have a staff job.

324

00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,340

We should have better maternity pay for everybody.

325

00:36:46,480 --> 00:37:00,260

Um, well I'm interested actually in what you've just said and, and thinking back to what you said earlier too, and we'll, we'll finish up quite soon, but there are bits of Dorothy there that you're giving us, and you've always been super honest and, and direct as I alluded to in the intro.

326

00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:07,860

But there are things that you've said, which make me think, gosh, actually you weren't like fearless and bold at those moments.

327

00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,660

You know, like when you were frightened on the effect that being a mom would have on your career.

328

00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,340

So you kind of, you were lucky enough to afford the nanny, but you felt like you couldn't do it any other way.

329

00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:21,700

'cause you had to say yes to every meeting you possibly could.

330

00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:30,620

Is that something now looking back, that you feel you, you wish you'd done differently or you wish you hadn't felt like that and handled it differently?

331

00:37:31,170 --> 00:37:31,460

Well,

332

00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:33,900

I don't think I was wrong <laugh>.

333

00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:38,710

I mean, I don't think I would've got the job if I said I couldn't walk.

334

00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:46,150

I think it would've affected my career prospects if I had constantly taken time off.

335

00:37:47,510 --> 00:38:00,270

I think, uh, I, I wouldn't have had a job if I had taken months off to have a baby and I don't know what I would've lived on anyway.

336

00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:08,160

Um, I, and I talk about all these things now, but that's easier because I'm successful.

337

00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:08,680

Yes.

338

00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:16,160

And of course the thing that menopause relates to, but, which is a huge thing, is ageism.

339

00:38:16,980 --> 00:38:21,360

So for a long time in tv I did not say how old I was.

340

00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:32,760

And at one point when I was in my fifties, we were discussing employing someone and one of my bosses said, oh, we can't employ her.

341

00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:34,560

She's too old, she's 46.

342

00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:40,200

And I thought, oh my god, if he knew my age.

343

00:38:41,100 --> 00:39:02,740

So, uh, and eventually I decided to come out as old and the standard said I could appear on their list of, I think it was the hundred mo or 200 most influential people in London if I said how old I was.

344

00:39:04,660 --> 00:39:08,320

But I had to, I couldn't be in the list if I didn't say how old I was.

345

00:39:08,460 --> 00:39:08,840

Oh God,

346

00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:09,640

What did you do?

347

00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:18,480

I I I actually went and consulted Peter Oborne, the journalist who I was working with on the time at the time.

348

00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:22,680

And I said, Peter, I'm thinking of coming out as old.

349

00:39:23,540 --> 00:39:27,200

And he thought for a minute and he said, I like it.

350

00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:39,640

So I appeared in this list of the most influential people in London and I draw drew it to the attention of my two male bosses.

351

00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:47,120

And I said, oh look, here is the list of the most influential people in London.

352

00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:50,040

Let's see if you are on it.

353

00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,600

I said to the first one.

354

00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:56,960

So I looked up his name and I said, oh, sorry, you are not on it.

355

00:39:57,460 --> 00:40:02,960

And then I said to the one his deputy, let's see if you are on it.

356

00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:05,640

Oh no, you're not on it.

357

00:40:05,980 --> 00:40:11,280

And then I said, and tell you what, just for a joke, let's see if I'm on it.

358

00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:14,560

Oh look I am.

359

00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:18,920

And I pointed to it and they were really annoyed.

360

00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:29,120

Well, though the deputy thought it was really funny, but I could see that his boss did not think it was so funny 'cause he wants to be on it.

361

00:40:29,810 --> 00:40:33,390

But I made them look at it and there was my age

362

00:40:34,170 --> 00:40:35,030

And that's,

363

00:40:35,370 --> 00:40:37,070

And that's how I came out.

364

00:40:37,850 --> 00:40:38,590

And now and

365

00:40:38,590 --> 00:40:39,350

Did they say anything?

366

00:40:41,020 --> 00:40:48,120

No, because they were so appalled and amazed that I was influential and they weren't

367

00:40:49,020 --> 00:40:53,840

You positioned that really well, rather than, rather than let them see it somewhere and look at the age first.

368

00:40:54,110 --> 00:40:55,520

That was a very good sell.

369

00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:55,840

Yeah.

370

00:40:55,980 --> 00:41:13,120

And now, you know, I got the job as president of Mary Edwards when I was 69, which may say I could only do because I'm on H R T, otherwise, I mean, if you wake up every hour, you cannot be a president.

371

00:41:14,020 --> 00:41:18,440

Um, and and now I'm 71, I'm really proud.

372

00:41:18,780 --> 00:41:27,840

And at Cambridge I say to people, 'cause they all think they're clever, blah, blah, they'll go, and I say, speaking with the wisdom of age

373

00:41:29,230 --> 00:41:37,000

Perfect <laugh>, when do I get to say that that I don't feel like I've got the justification of of something like that.

374

00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:37,520

That's cool.

375

00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:38,360

Just say it.

376

00:41:39,670 --> 00:42:01,130

Um, I wanted to wrap up with, um, asking you, do you, do you have anything that you wish, knowing what you know now and with the wisdom of age that you could have said to 24 year old Dorothy when you were going through a real tough patch, getting your career started?

377

00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:23,500

I would say you can, you should be applying for much better jobs because you deserve to get them because you are talented, hardworking, and honest, and not a lot of people are those three things.

378

00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:24,860

Yes.

379

00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:31,260

So more self-belief, although you had a good start with your, you know, your father and your teachers and you know, all of that.

380

00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,380

But I don't think anything can really prepare you for how brutal

381

00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:34,940

It is.

382

00:42:34,940 --> 00:42:44,100

Well, I, and I think also now the head of news at B B C Channel four and I T v and i t n, they're all women.

383

00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:54,810

And and I think that's a big difference now that you can look and see, oh, I, you know, I could do that.

384

00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:00,850

Well, you could say to yourself, you could look at Liz Trust and say, I could be Liz Trust, but don't do that.

385

00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,960

<laugh>

386

00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:03,680

Definitely don't do that.

387

00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:12,240

And do, do you have any other pearls of wisdom for people who are kind of struggling with their own self-doubt in their career?

388

00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:13,730

Yes.

389

00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:25,360

There's a, there's a technique that parents are encouraged to use with very small children when they're not feeling great.

390

00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:28,480

And it actually works really well for adults.

391

00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:40,140

And I do this, so every morning when you wake up, think of three good things you are going to do that day.

392

00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,180

And it doesn't need to be something amazing.

393

00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,220

It might be, I'm going to pick some flowers.

394

00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,980

I'm going to have a lovely boiled egg, I'm going to see my friend.

395

00:43:52,720 --> 00:44:02,970

But if you say those thing three things out loud, honestly, it makes you feel better before you even get outta bed.

396

00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:11,290

And then at night, before you go to sleep, think of three really nice things that you did that day.

397

00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:26,690

Again, they don't need to be amazing and say them out loud to yourself and you'll be amazed that that simple technique just really makes you feel better about yourself and your life.

398

00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:29,810

I love that.

399

00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,060

Dorothy, thank you so much.

400

00:44:32,660 --> 00:44:40,220

I just, I could talk to you all day, but you've got much more important things to be doing at Cambridge and also still doing kind of consultancy, aren't you?

401

00:44:40,220 --> 00:44:41,740

For Secret Channel four things?

402

00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:47,940

I'm still an executive producer of television programs, some of which secret.

403

00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:50,340

So, uh, Uhhuh.

404

00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:59,340

Oh, well, look, I, no, the really important thing I'm going to do is have lunch with my friend and that's, love that, that's very important.

405

00:45:00,380 --> 00:45:02,720

Always make time to have lunch with your friends.

406

00:45:04,020 --> 00:45:04,240

Yes.

407

00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:12,040

And people need to hear that go and have lunch with a friend, even if it's a cheese sandwich at their house and a good old cup of tea.

408

00:45:12,350 --> 00:45:17,080

It's much better than living in your head worrying about stuff all day.

409

00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:22,080

So absolutely we advocate, sharing and, um, talking to people.

410

00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:23,400

So thank you Dorothy.

411

00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:24,600

I really appreciate your time.

412

00:45:24,810 --> 00:45:25,240

Thank you.

413

00:45:27,460 --> 00:45:31,560

That's it for this episode of The Imposter Club, brought to you by talented people.

414

00:45:32,180 --> 00:45:38,880

I'm Kimberly Godbolt and it has been lovely to hang out with you while you commute slash gym slash dog walk or whatever you're doing.

415

00:45:39,580 --> 00:45:46,280

If this has struck a chord, please go ahead and share it with your friends in that close WhatsApp group, I'm not in or on your social networks.

416

00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:53,840

Our aim is to reach as many fellow imposters as we can to share love and learnings and create a sense of belonging.

417

00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:58,760

And if you haven't already, follow or subscribe to the pod so you don't miss an episode drop.

418

00:46:01,250 --> 00:46:09,080

Thank you to talented people, produced and hosted by me, alt exec, producer Rosie Turner, editor Ben Mullins.

419

00:46:09,540 --> 00:46:10,040

See you later.

Sexism, nuns & rocking 'old' - Dorothy Byrne reveals the personal influences on her career in journalism

Recent Episodes